offsetting the trigger in the plate

[rich pierce]

I know that on many Euro guns a single simple trigger was offset in the trigger plate.  How common on American pieces? Which way offset, and why?  I seem to recall it's toward the lockside, but I think that is the opposite of a double barreled shotgun, where I am guessing the front trigger is to the left and the rear trigger to the right IIRC. 

[Jerry V Lape]

On most double guns, the front trigger is offset to the right.  That works because the front trigger fires the right side barrel producing a straight back recoil making for a quicker recovery for the second shot. (firing the left barrel first produces more of a twisting motion to the shooter.  The right side barrel is also the one usually more openly choked. 

On a flintlock, the greatest advantage I can figure to offset would be to offset to the right for two reasons.   First it puts the contact point between the trigger and the sear in almost  straight line for more direct,smoother operation.  Should make the trigger pull a little lighter and crisper versus offsetting it to the outside (left end) of the sear where you wind up with more of a twisting motion on the sear.  The right side offset also makes a shorter reach for the trigger finger of a right handed shoot and therefore helps keep the finger off the wood where it would create a pulling force, twisting the gun off target to the right.  (This is probably minor for most hands, but on someone with short fingers it could be an asset.) 
 

 

[Bill of the 45th]

Rich, as to the why, I have a couple of 19th century single triggers like that, and just as we've discussed recently lightening trikker pull the positioning of the trigger bar to the sear bar will affect the pull.  The sear bar has a right/ left turn, but is still part of a fulcrum, and the farther away, the greater the force that is needed.  Also the trigger bar must clear the intermals, so the thinner the gun, and the room in the lock area, the more the space is restricted, so it becomes the relationship of sear, and trigger bars, with the internals, to get the lightest pull for the gun.  Simple as geometry, physics, and space.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.  It's either that or an apprentice that couldn't get the trikker stlot in the middle!

Bill

[LRB]

  Rich, I don't think you will find that feature on very many American guns of the 18th c. That is not an uncommon feature on Euro upper grade guns though, and as far as clearing internals, there are no internals in way of the trigger bar on a common single lock gun. You know that. But as said, it will reduce pull weight by a small tad.

[Roger Fisher]

That was illustrated in Pete Alexander's book I do believe makes for a better trikker pull.

[JTR]

Rich,
I just looked at 12 Kentucky's I have out and handy. Of those, 3 have the trigger noticably offset toward the lock side.

John

[Dave B]

I have three originals with single trikkers only one of these has a noticeable off set to the lock side.

JTR, Is there a particular school represented more prominantly. My one unsigned example is possibly from Lancaster Co.

[Stophel]

It is universal on European guns.  In fact, so far, I have not seen one that was centered!

I think it was done on earlier American guns, but then they were centered up.

I believe I know the reason.  With narrower barrels, and skinny guns, you just can't have the trigger off center without breaking into the lock inlet.  The gun I'm working on now is centered and is really close to the lock inlet (like a sixteenth of an inch).  I couldn't move it towards the lock if I wanted to.

[Acer Saccharum]

Stoph, that is something I would not have thought about until I broke into the lock inlet. Thanks for saving my axe. I was just about to chip out for my trikker, so I will now depth gage the inlet before I cut in the trikker slot.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

When I built my English style cherry fowler a few years ago I offset the simple pinned trigger to the right. It has nice pull, but I have nothing to compare against. It is a skinny gun and I had no problem with the trigger slot breaking into the lock inlet.....but, measure twice before you "chip out" Acer.

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Several of our kits (most actually) have the trigger off set.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have an original wreck of a HV fowler, and the flag part of the trikker, the part that touches the sear, is canted toward the lockplate side of the stock, while the trikker itself is in toward the center. The slot is filed crooked in the plate.

This brings the the trikker a little closer to the hand on a fat gun, AND it presses on the sear closer to the lockplate, which helps to not strain the sear so bad.

[longcruise]

I have one gun in the rack that has a double set trigger.  It can only be fired set because the trigger plate being centered and the barrel being a bit wide for the lock has the front trigger bar just missing the sear.  I'd fix it but it has been layed claim to by a grandson and he likes it like it is!

With than coloring my thinking, maybe at least some were offset because the sear bar was not long enough??

Barbie, why are those triggers offset??

[JTR]

Dave B,
One is an early Lancaster fowler, one is an early probable Adams county rifle ( 2" thick butts on these two), and the other a 1810-ish Lehigh flinter.

John

[Dave B]

John,
Thanks  for your information.  It helps to know every little bit about these rifles. On another note How many of your trikker plates have a step down in the front tward the tang screw hole?  Then also how many of them have the tail of the trikker plate driven in the wood at the tail end of the plate?

I always find my self looking for these little subtle details to see what they were doing back then.  On one of my single trikker plates I found where the smith had used a cold chisel to start the line for the final slot for the trikker and started punchin with the center puch down this line(The chisels mark making the center puch hold true,) but it was off a bit and he reset the slot leaving the evidence of how he made his plate slots. Cool beans I say.

[Dave B]

This is the trikker from my Riddle Lock rifle


This is the trikker plate from My French Fowler. Its pretty drastic in its off set by comparison.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, that French fowler plate has room for a second trigger. I can imagine that they used this pattern on many different guns, cutting one or two slots as required.

I appreciate your forensic eye toward gunbuilding. So often it's in the mistakes and the corrections that we see clues of how things were done. It also is a sign of the humanity, the fallible side of the builder. That has not changed in two hundred years. It's comforting to know that I am not the only one making mistakes.

Tom

[flintriflesmith]

The cast brass tricker plates on early Brown Bess musket had the tricker offset quite a bit. Since those guns were very thick through the lock area (big barrel and big thick lock) I always figured the offset had to do with making it easy for a shooter with smallish hands to comfortably get to the trigger.

The military seems to have always had the practice of building guns to fit the smaller shooters -- understanding that us long armed folks could learn to deal with it. I know this continued up through the M-14 with its short length of pull.

Gary

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That's a valid observation Gary.  The Lee/Enfield British .303 also has a very short LOP.