I used to shoot the odd shot load through my .58 Hawken- to 20 yards, it was murderous on grouse - got three with one shot - once, ground-sloucing. It shot really wide, but in that heavy rifle, I used about 1 1/2 ounces of 9's. No birds were ripped up badly. Those where the days I wanted a side-by-side, rifled tube one side, smoothbore the other.