Shot Pouch dated 1777

[James Rogers]

This is a great pouch.  I have a disturbance in the force that gives me the feeling that this is of 19th century manufacture.
Wish I new more about 18th century harness hardware.

[Artificer]

James,

I know what you mean about 18th century harness buckles, that's why I was a bit suspicious about the harness buckle in the second photo of Chuck's more recent set of photo's.

I looked primarily for dug examples on the net and came close in a few instances, but nothing quite as good as on this site:

http://backintimeleatherworks.com/products.html

If you go down to the pictures of the harness buckles, the top row, third from the right looks to be a sister to the buckle on the strap of this pouch.

Still, even if/when we prove everything on the pouch was of style of or before the period of 1777, that still does not absolutely prove the pouch was at least that old.   Without provenance and/or carbon dating (that I doubt anyone would readily do) we can not be sure.

Could this pouch be of prior to the 1777 date?  I think the answer to that is yes because it was made by a skilled craftsman who had access to brass rings and buckles and all "the latest up do date" ideas.  If the pouch and straps were more crudely made, then I'd have to say it most likely was certainly 19th century.  But no matter when it was made, it certainly is a most interesting pouch and I have truly enjoyed going over the pictures Chuck has presented us.

Gus

 

[Chuck Burrows]

some dated - circa 1780's - excavated buckles from the former colonies for comparison - both Iron and brass:

This first pic is of buckles excavated froma Shawnee village near Springfield, OH and dated 1780






and to keep things straight I have not personally examined the pouch (it's in Penna and I'm in Colo and haven't been very far east of the Rocky Mtns since Feb 1971...), I just offered to size and host the images.
Due to time constraints I haven't had time to study the images in depth so can't really offer much other than there is nothing about it that I can see off hand that would absolutely rule out the date of 1777 or even somewhat earlier.

[Artificer]

Chuck,

Sorry, I misunderstood.  I thought you had seen it in person.

Your opinion that you see nothing to rule it out from the date is most interesting and with your experience, that means a good deal.

While I would not try to exactly copy the pouch, it has details in it I was glad to see on a late 18th century pouch.

Again I'd like to thank you for posting all the pictures.
Gus   

[Ky-Flinter]

I have been greatly enjoying this discussion.  What a wonderful piece.  A huge thanks to the owner for sharing it and to Chuck for his efforts to bring it here.

 I am no expert, but trying to learn, so I will throw this out in hopes of continuing my education.  I don't think anyone has commented on the stitching.  Most of what can be seen seems so fine and uniform, I thought it was machine sewn.  I did some web searches last night but unfortunately couldn't find any close-up pictures of dated 18th c. leather stitching to compare.  I will appreciate hearing your comments.

-Ron

[Artificer]

 I am no expert, but trying to learn, so I will throw this out in hopes of continuing my education.  I don't think anyone has commented on the stitching.  Most of what can be seen seems so fine and uniform, I thought it was machine sewn.  I did some web searches last night but unfortunately couldn't find any close-up pictures of dated 18th c. leather stitching to compare.  I will appreciate hearing your comments.

-Ron

Ron,

There is no doubt in my mind this was hand sewn.  I see some areas where there is very slight differences in the distance between the holes.  However, this still is excellent stitching work and the mark of a skilled craftsman.  That may be why you think it may be machine sewn.

When you look at enough 18th ore even early 19th century handsewn articles, it can actually scare you how precisely each hole was stitched and how many holes per inch were used in some things.  Some highest quality leather wallets and gloves in the 18th century were stitched at 32 holes per inch (or more) and at least one other person has commented that they seen items with between 50 and 60 holes per inch.   

In the 18th century, you stood out as a tradesman by how well you made something and how well it looked.  Your competition had basically the same tools and to some extent the same training.   Costs of materials in the same town or area would have been almost the same.  Everything was basically hand made though there were some special tools and even some machines used by the better makers in the different trades.   Who ever did the most "finished" looking or esthetically pleasing work were the ones who commanded the highest paying patrons and therefore made the best living.

You have to have very precise over stitching wheels to mark where the holes are made for this kind of work and you have to be very exacting in how you punch the holes.  Then you have to be extremely precise in each hole when you put the thread through and even how tight you pull the threads at each hole.  I discovered 30 years ago that by putting the needle through the back of the holes that go over the other thread and putting the needle so it would go under the thread on the front side made the stitching extremely precise and uniform.  Most beginners and novices don't go to near that trouble when handsewing.  The uniformity of how tight you pull the threads at each hole will also show up in how exact the sewing looks when done.

[flintriflesmith]

Just to build on what Artifier said---the same is true of stitching in clothing.

Original 18th-century hand sewing looks so even that it can be mistaken for machine sewing. The crude, uneven stitches found is some modern reproduction clothing would never have been accepted in the period.

When young girls were being taught to sew they learned basic stitching before they moved on to fancy work we see in their "samplers."

Gary

[Ben I. Voss]

I am continually surprised by how finely and delicately so many objects were made back when everything was made by hand. Makes so many things we use today look clumsy.

[Artificer]

To add to what Gary wrote:  hand sewing clothing is just one of the things the folks at Colonial Williamsburg do so well.  Whilst in the Apothecary shop on one trip, an interpreter who was a tailor was in there.  While he spoke to the crowd and in just a couple minutes, he had sewn two inches that looked better than most sewing machines could do.  I watched him intently and when he took a break, I commented very favorably on his craftsmanship. 

It is a matter of record that large numbers of British Soldiers in the 18th century were originallyTailors prior to their enlistment.  This could have been because the tools required for the trade were fairly inexpensive compared to other trades, or the competition was pretty fierce, or they were looking for adventure.  But where it came in handy was on the annual issue of uniform clothing items in time so the soldiers would look their best when "turned out" for the annual celebration of the King's birthday.  The uniforms sent to the various regiments were often taken apart and re-tailored to fit every soldier.  It would be a long time in the future before Soldiers would have such well tailored uniforms again.
\
Gus

[Artificer]

I am continually surprised by how finely and delicately so many objects were made back when everything was made by hand. Makes so many things we use today look clumsy.

This is a huge part of the reason I love the 18th century so much, generally speaking the tradesmen lived by the thinking that only your best work you could do at the time was "acceptable," let alone "good enough."  That's the way my Grandfather taught me and why I feel so "at home" in 18th century reenacting and work. 

Now, that's not to say that everyone lived by those standards then.  In Virginia, there was a group who went around inspecting the work of Cordwainers for example.  I think this was done as shoes were so expensive and so necessary.  If they did not find the Cordwainer's work acceptable, they would destroy his stock and fine him heavily.  So the quality of work also was in part due to what people demanded back then.

In the early 80's, I visited the Cordwainer's shop at Williamsburg because being self taught, I did not know how to sew leather flat end to flat end.  I needed to know how to do that to make bayonet and sword scabbards.  The place was very crowded as the master of the shop spoke so well.  I waited for about a half hour to get up front and then grabbed a Dice Cup and pointed to the stitching and asked how they did that.  To my surprise and gratitude, the master of the shop pulled me into the work area and not only showed me, but had me do a little sewing while he gave me some extremely valuable pointers.  I learned more from him on fine technical points in an hour than I knew at that point.  Then we got into a conversation about the Cordwainer's Trade and the 18th century in general and forgot the crowd was there.  After a good half hour, one of the other visitors coughed and I looked at a full shop of visitors that were quiet.  I apologized for taking so much of the Master's time, but they said they found our conversation much more interesting than any questions they had.  That was one of the best visits I've had to Colonial Williamsburg.

Gus