Old Horn Coloring

[Mark Elliott]

As I look at old horns, I see two major color schemes.   Most are yellow/brown, but a lot have a red cast to them.    Most of these red ones seem to have a red glaze over yellow.    I am assuming that most old horns were stained yellow with aqua fortis and then turned darker brown with age.    The question is, what is the red glaze put over top the yellow on so many of the horns?   Is this an original finish or a shellac finish put on at a later time either to protect the horn during its normal service life or by a collector.  I have seen old rifles that were shellaced probably by a misguided collector.   Might the same thing have happened to these red glazed horns.   I was just looking for an opinion before I go about trying to recreate the finish.

Mark E.

[heinz]

Mark, at one time I used potassium permanganate on horns because I had read somewhere that it was sued by old hornsmiths.  It did have a reddish brown cast.  It was also fairly dark and seemed to not penetrate very far, as in it would steel wool of pretty quickly.  It is also dangerous to the skin.  I do not use it anymore.

[Salkehatchie]

Mark:

Don't know about the reddish toned ones.  But just yesterday made a trip deep into the Ozarks to pick up an original percussion gun.  While there, location undisclosed.  Must protect my sources you know...I got the priviledge to handle almost a dozen local family heirloom powder horns.  Of all sizes.  Several blow horns too interestingly enough.  Butt plugs, staples, straps etc.

Some with known provenance to 1812 and the Texas War of Independence era and War Between the States.  Earlier?  Not that up on my horns to tell.  Personalized with names, locations, battles and the like.  To the best of my limited knowledge not a single darn one had any "additives" of any kind applied to them.   Very little carving, engrailing and the like.  A name, location and the "workmanship" varied greatly.

PS:  One this percussion gets restored will have pictures posted for one and all to see.  I know the family from whence it came from and where.  Cocke, TN.  But that is for another post.

Thanks!

[Mark Elliott]

Come on guys.  Somebody has to know something about the red coloring.    Is it a trade secret?

[david50]

i have heard of using RIT dye to color horns,i imagine with a little experimenting you could come up with any color you want. if i remember correctly they have a color mixing chart on thier web site

[david50]

http://www.ritdye.com/Create_Custom_Color.9.lasso

[Randy Hedden]

Mark,

I don't believe I have ever seen any old horns with the red tint that you are talking about.  However, I believe that the red tit you see on some old rifles and on a lot of violins and other similar musical instruments is a tint that is in the varnish used to finish the rifles and violins.  Some old powder horns were varnished so if you varnished your horn with this "violin varnish" you should be replicating the red tint you are seeing on the old horns.  I believe Erik Kettenburg has something on his website about making the old violin varnish and/or a place to purchase it commercially if you don't want to make your own.  If you Googled "violin varnish" I think you would find several sources for the red tinted varnish.

Randy Hedden

[Jefferson58]

Mark:

In talking with Art DeCamp, he has indicated that a lot of the old horns he works on for restoration were obviously dyed. He is not sure what was used, but there is a clear indication that they were colored somehow.

I know that John Proud has studied this subject a bit as well and has not been able to really determine what was used in the colonial period. He feels that Aqua Fortis and Potassium Permanganate get closer than most things. They were both available in the 18th. century. Again, it seems open to conjecture.

The violin varnish Randy is indicating sounds very probable since it has been around for centuries. I have never seen an original horn with a red color either. Most of the old ones I pick up have gone to kind of a green tint.

Jeff

[Randy Hedden]

I know I said I had not seen an old horn with an overall red tint, but I was looking at Dresslar's powder horn book today and I did see a couple of horns that have a faint red tint to the horn.  It actually looks like these horns were dyed with aqua fortis and then varnished with a red color bearing finish.  I personally think I would use the violin varnish and lay two or three good coats of a quality paste wax over the varnish.

Vermilion was available during the time period and I believe it was used to make the red color on polychrome horns.  It was apparently mixed with nitric acid to achieve the red color much like iron was  dissolved in nitric acid to achieve a yellow color on horns. However, I would have no idea the strength of the acid or the percentages of the components mixed together.

Randy Hedden

[Mark Elliott]

What I am seeing in the horns I am looking at looks like violin varnish over aqua fortis.    It has rubbed off like it was spirit based.    I just wanted some other folks feedback on it.  I guess that I will have to enter into another adventure to make period correct red violin varnish.

Thanks Guys,

Mark E.

[Lee]

Mark:
Google "Dragon's Blood Shellac" and see what you come up with.  I know it was a period red finish for violins.  It is not used too much anymore due to availability of the raw material it was made from.  I have also seen it applied to period horn work.  Roland Cadle has a gorgeous original 18th C. ink horn that he bought from me a few years ago which was finished with it in a deep red color.  The red color of Dragon's Blood can be varied by dilution from a very concentrated dark red to a light red.
Lee 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Mark E, if you're interested in making up some 'Dragon's Blood Shellac" as noted by Lee here's a site I use from time to time:
http://www.woodfinishingenterprises.com/varnish.html

Scroll down until you get to Dragons Blood.
gary

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

The horn may have been sealed with a coat or more of garnet shellac spirit varnish...mostly wiped back....... I will have to try that.

[keweenaw]

There were a variety of red dyes used in colonial times, whether they were used by horners is another question.  Dragon's Blood is one, Logwood is another that will give a variety of colors depending on the mordant used.  Brazil wood was also widely used.  You can get Brazil wood either as  powdered wood and extract your own dye or buy the extract.  Dragon's blood would mostly be used in a finish to tone the finish while the log and Brazil woods would be used to produce a dye to dye the product.  Madder is also period correct and will give a red dye that is pretty light fast with an alum mordant.  Cochineal is a bright scarlet dye. 
The British cloth dyeing industry lobbied, successfully, for a while to outlaw the use of the wood dyes.  They had been using Madder for their red but the wood dyes were much cheaper and produced brighter and longer lasting colors.  I have no idea how any of these would work on horns but it would be pretty simple to find out by experimentation.

Tom

[Mark Elliott]

Guys,

Thanks for all the replies.  I am going to make some red violin varnish and use that.

Mark E.

[mtgraver]

Hi Mark,
The horn I did for Gordon Barlow, with the silver wire in the spout and band over the carved base plug was colored by natural dyes. The same ones Mike Small and I have been playing with for years and that is osage orange wood, butternuts and walnuts, boiled/reduced for color, add what you think will give the color you want. In this case the color was almost spot on to the Halstead horn Gordon turned up from the family. The orangish red color was not applied it was in the surface of the horn. The horn is dated 1758, I believe. To my knowledge no one has done a chemical analysis on the coloration of horn, My personal belief is the environment in which the horn was kept over the years, meaning the apparent discoloration of articles from sulfur. Basicly a natural changing of the surface color, but no way of proving the fact without some removal of horn material, don't think any collector wants to do that. lol I wouldn't! Finally the reddish color was imparted from the butternuts, and yes they are hard to find due to the blight. Hope that helps if you're not done already.
Mark 

[Mark Elliott]

Mark,

Thanks for the information.   Where did you get your butternuts?

Mark E.

[mtgraver]

Mark,
I'd found some on line years ago. Some friends have saved them for me and some locals had found a tree and picked up some for me. The trees are dying so try to find some while you can. Maybe someone on here can give you a better source. Hope that helps,
Mark