50 cal and moose

[Lloyd]

Since the time I shot that Moose, I have made me another big game rifle.  This one is a Flintlock English Sporting Rifle in .58 caliber (with a period peep sight, I'm getting old and just don't trust my eyes to work everytime with open sights.)

When it comes to this statement,

. Question you need to ask yourself . Will I have the time to invest in the ideal shot ? With unlimited time you can achieve the ideal shot , if time is limited then you may have to push the issue or accept a less than ideal shot and live with the results .

I always take the time to make an ideal shot.... If it isn't an ideal shot, then I pass it up.  That is why I like to call animals in rather than stalk.  I have lost two deer in my life.  One because I figured the angle wrong (shooting up a very steep incline and shot too low.) and the other was when I shot the buck with the .45 which wasn't powerful enough (too small a charge) to penetrate the front shoulder bone. (At 45 yards, it broke the front shoulder and from what I could tell exited through the brisket.)  I followed that deer for over 8 hours until dark in a foot of snow, sometimes being no more than 15 yards from him, but could not shoot because of houses. 
When I first retired from the Army and came to N. Idaho, I fed my family for a number of years on venison, and I used a .223 on most of them.  Never had one run more than 10 or 15 yards, most fell where they were standing.

If you learn to hunt with one of those little calibers you  realize that shot placement is everything, then you just take your time.

[Daryl]

The posts about time, are very much to the point.  There are times, when the moose or deer, or elk you get close enough for a shot at, is the only opportunity you will have that season.  Having a calibre you can count on to punch through twiggs, willow stalks or a bit of greenery and still make the shot certainly helps. 

Lloyd's 'change' to a .58 was a very worthwile move in this regard.

LB makes a very good point about big bears - here, they sometimes come to a rifle shot as if it was a dinner bell. Having to wipe the bore before you can re-load might be time poorly spent - another topic, but pertinent in some areas.

I think that while a .50 will certainly kill a moose as will a .45, one can certainly do better. My own feelings are that a .50 on moose is very similar to using a .40 on deer.  It will work, yes, but is restrictive in range and shot placement, thus on the edge of being a poor choice, imho, of course.

 

[Dphariss]

As discussed a .50 cal. will kill a moose . Question you need to ask yourself . Will I have the time to invest in the ideal shot ? With unlimited time you can achieve the ideal shot , if time is limited then you may have to push the issue or accept a less than ideal shot and live with the results .
Only you can decide weather the time allowed is enough to accomplish the job the way you want .
Know an Inuit who hunts with a 22 hornet , shoots everything from Polar bear to Moose with it . As he stated "death has no time and I don't wear a watch ". He has tracked an animal 8 hours , only to  have a less than ideal shot present itself . Continued the quest the next day , after 3 more hours the ideal shot presented itself and he closed the deal .
YMMV
Thanks , Steve

If you are going to worry about not getting the shot you need then hunt with a 375 H&H or 416 with solids then you can pretty well shoot from either end.
Part of the challenge of hunting with a traditional ML is the hunt.
There was a guy in this county back years ago that hunted the G bears of the time with a 22 Savage Hipower.  He was reported to kill them running with head shots. Did so for a number of years. Then one day he came into town and traded it for a 300 H&H.

Dan

[Leatherbelly]

  It'd be nice to have enough game around that you could turn down a few and know you will get another opportunity tomorrow or the next day. Around here lately, the game is scarce due to extensive logging.You never know when or if your chance will come,maybe at 300 yards, maybe at 40 feet.Hard to cover all the bases with one gun unless its modern. Our moose draws here are diffacult to get,some people wait ten years to get drawn for a moose. I got drawn two years in a row, after a ten year wait. Last year, never even saw a moose,never mind a bull. This year I got lucky with the draw, and shot the first bull I seen! Called him in to 40 feet. Hard to know what gun to bring.

[northmn]

This years deer season in Minnesota was another case for time and opportunity vs. gun.  I ended up shooting my deer this year with a 30-30 on the last day of season.  It was definietely no trophy, but person at the registration told me to be darn glad I got anything.  I like venison, would love to shoot more with my flintlock, but sometimes you can get tired of waiting for that opportunity.  Funny thing was that the deer I got would have been a good ML candidate.  But those I passed up opening weekend were not.  Went ML hunting during the ML season and saw a doe off my tractor getting wood and four bedded ones the last weekend that were too spooky and in the brush.  The easy deer hunting we enjoyed for a few years has taken a slump.  I agree with Dan in that if you hunt with a ML you have to dedicate yourself to that type of hunting.  I still have to go to work and a few other things such that I cannot spend every day out in the woods.  Don't think I would if I could. 

DP

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

As I was reading the thread and noting the different philosophy's of shot placement I had the "time" thought running through my head.

Using what the locals use isn't always the best advice because the locals will be able to hunt all season, and the next season, and the season after that. . .

If I ever get the opportunity to hunt moose, it will likely be a rare opportunity, perhaps the only opportunity in my life.  Given that piece of reality that I'd have to deal with, I think I would opt for enough gun that if I had a big ol' bull facing me, with his ribs obscured by a tree trunk, I could punch through his shoulders.

Would I waste meat?  Yeah probably.  But I would still be taking some home.

The question running through my head is always, when will I get another opportunity like this?

[Daryl]

I've had that very shot on both deer and moose. Fortunately, the rifle I was carrying was up to the task bore rifles work here,  a .50 doesn't - for moose, anyway.

 Double lunged,  moose will always go down - generally not right away, but it is dead walking - or running like it was scalded, which is the most common occurance with small bore ML's, slugs or round ball. Round balls usually track straight as long as they are round, whereas after flattening out to a disk, they'll vere off course. By that time, both lungs have been holed and he's dead on his feet.  Sit down, have a cup of coffee or a smoke (cigars are great for this) - then take up the tracks about 1/2 hour later and there he is, dead in his bed, only 50 yards away (in the bush). Push him and you've got a chase on your hands.

The slugs we've seen used on moose (one of the reasons we lost our primitive moose hunt) usually vere off track upon impact, especially if cliping a rib - but sometimes just when contacting the muscle and fat under the hide. By the time we got the guys to switch to round balls on that hunt, the game was up as the game branch thought the ML's being used couldn't kill a moose.  Most at that time were using the cheap, button rifled 48" twist comercial rifles & were mostly guys who bought them just to get a couple more weeks to fill their tags.  Today, the inlines fill that purpose - most don't shoot them much due to cost of 'amunition'.

Round balls work splendidly, as the previously slug shooting fellows found - instead of returning to camp saying "I got 'slugs' into 3", they arrived with a moose in tow behind their machine - "Only took one shot, too!" One guy was using a .45 TC with the barrel cut back to 26" who used 80gr. 2F and a .440RB. Double lunged, moose die - but hit them in a 2 1/2" diameter leg bone or 3/4" blade and he's merely wounded.  It takes a heavy ball to punch through obstacles.  That's why I use a .69.  Also - thar's bars in them thar woods.

[northmn]

Decided to bring this forward as a addition to the discussion on lead alloys.

DP

[Dphariss]

I think if you're not packing shooting 400gr. of ball weight or over, and using WW or harder at that along with descent driving force (70gr. 3F need not apply), you should stay away from any major moose or elk bones.

I agree completely with this.
I broke the upper leg bone of a big cow elk once with a 54 at about 80 yards. It was a once shot kill. But I would also state that had the ball not gotten the aorta it would have been unpleasant. It did not have much left and did not penetrate the of side chest wall. Cow went down on the spot for probably 20 seconds then got up and ran apparently blind about 40 yards (toward the road  ) then piled up.
A one ounce ball would be much better for this. But I try to avoid this bone on any animal with any projectile.
Daryl's previous comments on bullets not tracking straight are also good advice. I have had this problem using a modern (new and improved) 45-70 factory load and its a PITA. No major bones broke bullet just deflected on striking the deer. Shot 2 deer had 2 failures in which the bullet turned about 45 degrees.  Doing a perfect heart/lung shot on a broadside deer then having to clean up a messy gutshot because the bullet went in about 2" and turned cured me. I gave the rest to my son to shoot for fun.

Dan

[msw]

I agree with Daryl- to [not] paraphrase Mies van der Rohe (the 'less is more' guy), more is better.  I don't think a .50 has the requisite whompability for moose.

Just one guy's free opinion, and no doubt worth it!

[bob in the woods]

Preferred moose guns .  Lots of water here, with tag alders everywhere. I like my .62 rifle with 110 gr of FFG. or if poking around where range is short, my smoothbore.[ 10 ] with 120 to 140 gr FFG and patched ball. These don't require as much co-operation from the moose as the smaller bores.

[Dphariss]

Picture is worth a 1000 words



No I didn't shoot it. Was killed by the neighbor's farmhand at Delta Jct, AK on some land I own that is in a closed to moose hunting area that requires a drawn permit to shoot there. 
Dan

[Leatherbelly]

IMHO, a fifty is like a .270 Win. for moose, marginal!

[bs2]

oldgreenhead,

Here are my thoughts!

Unless you have the opportunity to hunt a lot of moose, and wait for the perfect broadside shot. Use a bigger bore!

I like at least 400 grains of lead, 500 is better!

Why?

For quartering shots.

If you need to brake some bones to get into the vitals, that big ole hunk of lead will blow on threw! All the way on threw!

I like big exit holes!

Why spend the time and money on a hunt and not have Enough Gun?

BIGGER IS BETTER!

No-BS

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I killed my first moose with a .75 cal. Brown Bess musket.  The charge was 100 grains FFg with a pure lead  denim patched .735 ball. The range was exactly 100 paces up a slight hill - broadside shot.  The ball hit perfectly...right behind the big fore leg bone, through a rib, through both scapulae, both lungs, out through another rib, and stopped on the hide far side.  The moose went about 15 yards, very slowly, and flopped down.  That ball flattened out on the entrance side and ended up about 25 cent piece size.  If I'd hit the leg bone, as in Dan's good picture, I would not have got that penetration, but I think I'd have pieced both lungs.

[bob in the woods]

If you had hit the leg bone, but were using a harder ww ball I venture that you would have been OK.
They go through deer and black bears from any angle at all. I switched to wheel weight balls as per Daryl
in my New England Fowler 10 bore, and think they're great. Haven't  got a moose with one yet though.
Maybe this year.

[Daryl]

The bone, below the joint where Dan is holding the leg, to make a nice lung shot, is about 3 1/2" in diameter.  Even a yearling bull calf has 2" to 2 1/2" of solid bone there.  It's amazing how well that solid green bone will stop projectiles.

WW for moose is a very good idea, and is what makes the round ball better for really large game than any muzzleloading conical.  Conical bullets did not replace the round ball for dangerous game until the breech loaders allowed heavy charges with hardened 'bolts'(concials). The ability of alrger bored muzzleloaders to shoot hard balls is what kept them in use long after the Lefaucheau breechloaders came into use. They were restricted in charge due to ctg. length and strength in the early days and could not surpass the lowly round ball on the truley large animals of chase.

My first moose with the .69, collected a round ball smack dab on the leg bone (about where Dan's hand is) after hitting 50 yards of willow branches. I heard the fttttttttttttttwhock of the ball's flight. That first shot was a pure lead ball, driven by 165gr. 2F.  The moose was roughly 100yards away & the ball struck about 10" left of my point of aim.  His rear legs sagged, threw his heat up, then he straightened up and turned around. By then, I'd reloaded with a paper ctg., 165gr. 2f and a WW ball.  That one only hit a 1/2 dozen willows, sounding like ftttwhock and smacked him right on the point of aim. At that shot, his butt hit the ground and he threw his antlers back over his back, shaking his head back and forth.  I'd never seen such evidence of trauma before, especially with moose. They usually just take off running. He shakily gained his feet and stumbled slowly 25 feet or so and collapsed. Note he was walking, limping mind you, but on all 4 legs.  His left front leg was bearing considerable weight.

The first ball, a pure lead one, had smashed the left front leg bone about 2" below the joint (difficult to be exact) and stopped against the ribs, in the connective tissue between the leg and the rib cage.  I was slightly below the moose, shooting at a slight up-angle.  It was not flattened out a great deal, as after hitting all those willows, I assume it had slowed considerably.

 The second ball, impacting on the other side, had broken a rib off on impact, driving that 6" chunk of rib through the bottoms of both lungs, to stick between two ribs on the other side.  The ball had gone through both lungs, leaving about a 3 1/2" to 4" hole, straight across both lungs, through a rib, then impacted the shoulder joint, smashing it into small chunks, stopping under the hide there. The ball is still round, with marks on the anterior surface. I was very much impressed over the 'gun's power, and the 'ability' of the leg bone to stop the first 480gr. pure lead lead round ball. What the WW ball did, in comparrison was striking!  The 'chunk' of rib and velocity it must have attained to drive through the lungs and stick into the meat between the ribs was amazing. Then, to double lung the moose, go through another almost 1/2" thick rib, to smash the knuckle joint into chunks.  I was impressed.

If shooting a ball smaller than about .60 be sure to hit no big bones.

[blackdog]

Ive heard not to use ww lead in rifled barrels.  Not sure if that is an old wives tale or not.  Ive only ever used hornady and they seem very soft.  This might be better as a post.

[northmn]

Many use them.  Nothing destructive to the bore just that the harder ball will not "impress" as esily when loading with a patch.  One theory is that you get "slippage" as the ball is too hard for any grabbing by the patch.  If yoy are shooting bench competition WW may not prove as accurate.  If you are deer hunting with a 50 or 54 I doubt that WW is needed but it will work.  For moose, hairsplitting accuracy is not really needed.  One thing that has to be thought of is that a mold that casts a 495 lead ball may cast a little larger WW ball which can also cause some loading changes.

DP

[Daryl]

Dave makes a good point - and the ITX balls I've just received even rise this to another level.  Yes- pure lead balls must be used, in the ormal tight combinations many of us use. Due to their hardness, WW and perhaps even more so, the ITX non-tox balls generally should be undersize, to allow a thick enough patch to be used, that will take the rifling.  They cannot be impressed by the rifling, at all and therefore the patch 'takes the guff'.

This means, and I repeat, the ball usually has to be smaller. For example, I like WW balls for moose in my .69, but to use the heavy hunting loads I developed, the .684" ball I had, is too large and only paper ctgs. can be used with the hard ball.  In order to use WW balls with cloth patches, I ordered and received a .677" ball mould.  This one allows the use of a heavy patch and 'hunting' accuracy is unimpared.  Due to their size, they enlarge the groups somewhat, but 2 1/2" at 100 meters instead of 1 1/2" is a moot point, when moose or deer are concerned.

Once our range re-opens, I'll be able to test the ITX non-toxic balls in a few different .50's. The results might be interesting.  There are couple other fellows on the forum who have also received these very hard balls for testing.

[flintlock]

This .50 caliber ball was retrieved from a bear, not a moose. It expanded to 7/8 inch diameter and flattened to 3/16 inch. It stopped just under the skin on the far side, after turning both lungs to red jelly.



It was pushed by 110 grains of Goex fffg for a muzzle velocity of ~2050 fps. The distance was about 45 yards. By then the ball was down to about 1570 fps. As others have said, shot placement is everything.

Flintlock

[Leatherbelly]

Shot placement is everything as Flintlock says.Just as a comparison, I shot a nice young bull once with a high power at about 75 yards. He was facing me. After the shot, it bolted like his rectal unit was painted with turpentine.I found it stone dead about a hundred yards away. The bullets path past through the heart and one lung and never exited.Never found the bullet.I'd have thought  a shot like this would have anchored him.
  Getting back to the subject, a fifty will knock them dead if the perfect shot is offered. Myself, I want more gun.