Author Topic: KiK powder vs Goex  (Read 6911 times)

jamesthomas

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KiK powder vs Goex
« on: May 14, 2010, 01:36:33 AM »
 Well i'm about to run out of my swiss powder and since it's gone up in price it's out of my  range.I've been figuring on Goex but then saw KiK on Powders inc.Some fellows on another forum seemed to like it,appears to be inbetween goex and swiss in power,and burns purty clean( no cleaning between shots) i would like some input as it is even cheaper than Goex.So far nobody has anything bad to say about it.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2010, 02:53:25 AM »
Oh yes KIK, thats the can that you hear gypsy music when you crank off the lid... ::)

2 or 3 yrs ago an article on just this subject was in M Blasts.  The writer had compared the Goex with the imported KIK. started at 100 yds from rest on the 8 ring black bull with 8 or 9 shots w/Goex with normal good result he then tried the kik and it took 10 shots to get 8 ON THE PAPER...He then moved in to 75 yds lsame kind of target started w the Goex with fine results then the KIK and was all over the paper with one shot under said paper..... ::)

Shooting conditions were near perfect no wind good light.  That was with 'his' rifle!  Your rifle may do ok with it; but that writer would not use it if he got it free. the poor results 'could' have been that the KIK threw less volume in his measure than the Goex and that 'might' have been the reason for the rotten performance of said kik!

btw he changed nothing except the powder......brand!

Anyone else??

FG1

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2010, 04:16:06 AM »
I bought some and have gotten good results in a colerain barrel 54 cal. I did notice a bit more oompf with it . So I dropped from 80  grs to 70 grns .

Wyoming Mike

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2010, 05:01:47 PM »
That is not at all the results I got shooting KIK.  I ran through 25 1bl. of it a few years ago and could not see much difference at all between KIK and GOEX.  The KIK was a little hotter and a little cleaner than GOEX but that was about all.  The group size using either powder didn't change at all.

I went back to GOEX because I could get it for $9.00 a pound in bulk.  This year I could not get bulk so picked up another 25 lbs. of KIK.

The only thing I can figure is that the hotter KIK may have been blowing out the patches where GOEX would not.  Was there anything about patch condition in the article?

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2010, 05:23:40 PM »
That is not at all the results I got shooting KIK.  I ran through 25 1bl. of it a few years ago and could not see much difference at all between KIK and GOEX.  The KIK was a little hotter and a little cleaner than GOEX but that was about all.  The group size using either powder didn't change at all.

I went back to GOEX because I could get it for $9.00 a pound in bulk.  This year I could not get bulk so picked up another 25 lbs. of KIK.

The only thing I can figure is that the hotter KIK may have been blowing out the patches where GOEX would not.  Was there anything about patch condition in the article?

The first KIK came into the U.S. in 2000 through GOEX.  At that time GOEX could not get a decent powder out of the then new Minden plant.  Their charcoal supplier had pulled a fast one on them when GOEX ceased production at the Moosic, PA plant in 1997.  When GOEX started the Minden plant up their long-time charcoal supplier was simply buying charcoal and reselling it to GOEX.
In 1998 GOEX went to KIK in Slovenia and taught them how to make a rifle burn rate black powder that would be suitable for sale on the U.S. market.  The KIK plant had been part of the East Bloc defense industries.  They made only small amounts of fireworks powder and then powders for grenades and land mines.  They had not produced propellant grades for close to 100 years.
The first KIK in through GOEX was low in density.  Around 0.90 g/cc when it should have been 1.00 to 1.05 g/cc bulking density.  The powder was poorly polished at best.
KIK used the same commercially prepared alder charcoal as did one other European powder maker.  So it was fast and clean but the poor job of polishing cost it in accuracy.  With that shipment.  A 5 shot string would give two fliers.  This was seen in both round ball guns and BP cartridge shooting.
One of the peple from the plant in Slovenia even wrote an article for Muzzle Blasts on how to get accuracy in a round ball rifle.

GOEX ceased their relationship with KIK-Kamnik in 2000.  Between early 1998 and late 1999 GOEX had imported roughly 1 million pounds of black powder for non-propellant uses from the plant in Slovenia.  So while they preached buy American they were importing a large amount.  In 1998 GOEX had visited China with the idea of bringing Chinese-made black powder into the U.S. for sale under the GOEX label.

After GOEX ceased any purchases from KIK, in Slovenia, another company, possibly Western Powder, imported about 2 containers of propellant grade black powder from KIK in Slovenia.  That is what is seen for sale now.  That has been in-country for about 3 years.

About 2 years ago KIK went bankrupt.  The plant is out of operation and nothing to indicate it will ever go back into production.  There was a rumor in shooting circles that another container of BP was due into the U.S. in January of 2010 but that was just a rumor.  Nothing ever came of it.

The shooters view of how the KIK compares to GOEX, or other brands, depends on what they are shooting.  Compared to 1998-99 GOEX rifle powder production the KIK was a good bit faster.  But in 2000 and 2001 GOEX got both their saltpeter and charcoal supplier problems squared away and their velocities came up dramatically as a result.  So the difference between GOEX and KIK velocities is now not as great as it had been originally.  With the alder wood charcoal the KIK does have an edge over GOEX in bore fouling properties.

I don't know if KIK got their act together on the density and polishing problem in shipments after the 2000 shipment to GOEX.  If KIK did a better job of polishing the density comes up as a result.  Accuracy is then improved.  So I don't know if they corrected it.  I was not about to buy a case of it just to see if they had gotten their act together.

Bill K.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 05:34:48 PM »
Thanks Bill - That explains why the Ah - 'writer' of the M Blasts article had his KIK shots all over the paper and off the paper.  "He" must have had some of the lousy KIK.   I hope the man that just bought 25 lbs got some better grade.... ::)

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 09:31:10 PM »
Thanks Bill - That explains why the Ah - 'writer' of the M Blasts article had his KIK shots all over the paper and off the paper.  "He" must have had some of the lousy KIK.   I hope the man that just bought 25 lbs got some better grade.... ::)

Roger,

I was under the impression that he wrote that for KIK on how to get it to shoot accurately.  I had not seen the article but it was commented on by someone in the business.
None of the powder makers, with the exception of the Swiss, seem to understand the importance of proper grain polishing/loading density and the relationship to good accuracy.

The grain polishing thing is the difference between a powder that takes little in the way of load tinkering vs one you really have to pull out all of the tricks to get it to work.

Bill K.

digger

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Re: KiK powder vs Goex
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 05:46:11 AM »
Nothing scientific here, but I've had great luck with the 25lbs of Kik I've been using.