Author Topic: Smoothbore roundball question......  (Read 6510 times)

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Smoothbore roundball question......
« on: June 23, 2010, 05:33:42 AM »
My smoothbore hits 3" low of point of aim at 25 yards off a bench.   This with .715 rb's.

My question is: if I go to .690's with a thicker patch, will the lighter rb's strike 3" higher at 25 yards (everything else being equal)?

All input welcomed!

Thanks very much, Skychief.

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • Dane Lund
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 06:27:26 AM »
Skychief,

Not sure about the ball/patch change. But.... if your smoothie has no rear sight, you can make it shoot higher, just by showing a little more front sight.  Don't really need to change anything.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 07:52:10 AM »
Thanks smallpatch.   I tried showing more muzzle today.   While it will work, I am not comfortable shooting that way...especially at 25 yards.   I really want it to shoot to its sights at that short range.

Thanks for your suggestion!

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 04:08:35 PM »
Skychief- how high is the front sight. As with any gun, a lower sight will raise the point of impact. The other alternative is to :use more powder, try different combinations as you've indicated, or bend the barrel.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 04:44:50 PM »
Yes, if you have any frt sight left file it down (gradually as you shoot)  You can file the sight base lower (thinner) which shows more blade and take the blade thats left down to a nubb.   You don't need much blade to see it...Let us know how it goes.


Lastly bend the barrel that'l work. ::)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 08:32:33 PM by Roger Fisher »

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 06:17:22 PM »
I should have shared more information earlier.   I am shooting a T/C New Englander with a 28" cylinder bore.   It wears the simple brass bead and no rear sight.   I prefer not filing down the bead.

I tried loads of 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 grains 2f, with and without cushion wads or hard cards atop the powder.   All but the 50 grain loading, hit at the same vertically.   The 70 grain load shot the tightest.

I am not fond of the idea of relieving my barrel and chasing it back and forth so to speak.

How about using 1f powder?   Might that increase barrel dwell of the rb and subsequently strike higher?


I appreciated all you guys and your feedback.

Skychief.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 06:27:05 PM »
I should have shared more information earlier.   I am shooting a T/C New Englander with a 28" cylinder bore.   It wears the simple brass bead and no rear sight.   I prefer not filing down the bead.

I tried loads of 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 grains 2f, with and without cushion wads or hard cards atop the powder.   All but the 50 grain loading, hit at the same vertically.   The 70 grain load shot the tightest.

I am not fond of the idea of relieving my barrel and chasing it back and forth so to speak.

How about using 1f powder?   Might that increase barrel dwell of the rb and subsequently strike higher?


I appreciated all you guys and your feedback.

Skychief.
You will have to change something with the sights or bend the barrel.
The much reduced velocity will make it shoot lower.
If you want to shoot RBs you need rifle sights anyway.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 07:21:15 PM »
Not necessarily, Dan.  I have a Chambers' Pennsylvania fowler that I took in trade from Leatherbelly.  Ideally, I'd like to have just the tip of the front sight above the breech for close range work, but it shoots low.  So. I learned BY SHOOTING IT that it prints tack on at 25 yds. if I show the entire sight right down to the barrel above the breech, with the tip of the sight where I want the ball to go.  For 75 yds. I show a little of the barrel and the sight above the breech, and for our long shot target - 14" disc of steel at 109 yds., I hold the same amount of barrel and sight above the breech.  In other words, all the front sight and its base, and an equal amount of browned barrel above the breech.  I can hit that disc with regularity.  My load for all ranges out to 110 yds. is 85 grains FFg GOEX, .022" denim patch, my own secret recipe lube (available upon stimulation), and a .605" pure lead ball.  Here's a pic of me and the gun, and a card cut.

D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

J.D.

  • Guest
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 09:52:37 PM »
You might try shooting off hand, instead of off a bench. Shooting from a bench changes your stock weld, which changes the position of your rear sight, your eye, so try it off hand and see if the POI changes before making any corrections.

God bless

roundball

  • Guest
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 10:14:34 PM »

You might try shooting off hand, instead of off a bench. Shooting from a bench changes your stock weld, which changes the position of your rear sight, your eye, so try it off hand and see if the POI changes before making any corrections.


Plus, it might print higher just from the difference in the recoil arc being more pronounced when you get off the bench, as recoil arcs can be pretty subdued when all hunkered down over a long gun on a bench.

After learning a bench rested muzleloader printed higher when shot while not on the bench, I do all my final fine tuning sight-in work for a hunting gun, from the position that I'm in for 98% of the shots I'll take with it...which is sitting down and leaning back against a tree, left elbow braced down against my side/chest.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 10:17:12 PM by roundball »

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2010, 10:51:52 PM »
Bench technique makes a big difference to bal impact.  I sit fairly erect both feet flat on the ground, butt to my shoudler and hold the stock in my left hand (right handed) as if I was shooting offhand- which is at the entry pipe. The back of THAT hand is rested on the bags. The gun shoots identially off the bags and offhand.
Resting the forestock on the bags and gripping a rear bag for elevation and support as in BR shooting only works in bench rest shooting or for very light recoiling guns - like gopher guns.  Muzzlelaoders have too much muzzle rise along with barrel and ignition time to do this.  I find they usually shoot high and to the right if held BR style.  Yes- they will shoot accurately, group wise thus held, but will not shoot the same as when one is standing upright.
I have to hold it as if shooting offhand, and sit high, not hunkered down over the stock, ie; low bench and bags.  The system I use works for me right to 200yards.

Offline satwel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2010, 06:39:33 PM »
Skychief,

You may find that switching to a lighter ball will not raise the point of impact. I know that in a pistol with fixed sights, switching to a heavier bullet will raise the point of impact because the heavier bullet generates more recoil, so the muzzle is higher when the bullet leaves the barrel. I'm not sure if the same principle applies to a long arm, but I don't see why it wouldn't. I'm new to smoothbore shooting (with no rear sight) myself, and I'm still trying to figure out my sight picture in relation to the how much barrel top should be showing. IMHO I'd fiddle with my sight picture and how I hold the weapon, before I'd switch to a smaller ball.

I also agree with the other posters who stated that a gun fired from a bench rest will hit in a different place than one fired offhand standing. Since I compete only in offhand matches, I sight in a new rifle or my smoothbore firing offhand. Shooting off a bench tells me how consistently a ball, patch, powder combination will hit a given point, but I've found it has nothing to do with where the ball will hit when fired offhand.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2010, 07:13:31 PM »
Not necessarily, Dan.  I have a Chambers' Pennsylvania fowler that I took in trade from Leatherbelly.  Ideally, I'd like to have just the tip of the front sight above the breech for close range work, but it shoots low.  So. I learned BY SHOOTING IT that it prints tack on at 25 yds. if I show the entire sight right down to the barrel above the breech, with the tip of the sight where I want the ball to go.  For 75 yds. I show a little of the barrel and the sight above the breech, and for our long shot target - 14" disc of steel at 109 yds., I hold the same amount of barrel and sight above the breech.  In other words, all the front sight and its base, and an equal amount of browned barrel above the breech.  I can hit that disc with regularity.  My load for all ranges out to 110 yds. is 85 grains FFg GOEX, .022" denim patch, my own secret recipe lube (available upon stimulation), and a .605" pure lead ball.  Here's a pic of me and the gun, and a card cut.



OK let me rephrase that. I need rifle sights. ;D

Just seeing the things is a major problem anymore.

And as Daryl  states how the gun is benched can make a big difference.
Where the gun is rested can make a big difference with some guns.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Smoothbore roundball question......
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2010, 11:31:55 PM »
Tks for the support Dan.  I'd like to add something to the bench technique post.

 I use this postion, holding the rifle in my left and right hands the same as if I'm shooting offhand, with all my hunting rifles - no matter the period.  All of them shoot identically off the bench to shooting from postitions, as I use the same holds in all postions, whether I'm then resting the back of my had on the bags for further support, or my elblows on my knees - the hands are at the wrist and forend.

Left to bounce, all will shoot to different points of impact from different postions.  Th is was struck home to me with a little M94 with 16" bl. in .45 Colt. I was running 300gr. bullets at 1,740fps from that gun, and the difference shooting with bags under the forend to holding was a good 12" to 13" at 100 meters.  The difference with my .375 was only 3 1/4' but would still promote a miss or wound at 200 yards on a deer.  The .69 REALLY throws the shots high if left to bounce off the bags, however shoots perfectly held as noted.  Hold as above noted double handed holding, the poi off the bags was identical to shooting offhand no matter what the calibre.  Since then, I've done it this way with every hunting rifle & have been rewarded with identical poi.

Light recoiling guns will shoot very close off bags to what they do offhand, however there will usually be some difference.
Note also, that holding the gun in both hands will not provide the tightest groups, not as tight as a good bench-rest technique, however the centre of the group is what we're after in sighting in, not exactly how tight that group might be.  A tight group that misses in the field is now where near as good a group that hits.

Where to rest a gun, as Dan noted is very important.  In chunk, it is normal to rest the gun near the muzzle. Taylor and I both started resting the forend at the first pipe and found accuracy wasn't as good as we wanted.  We then tried the next pipe back and immediately were granted tight grouping. Different guns are different. I usually rest the back of my hand, that hand holding the stock at the entry pipe, but was satisfied with the 1" 5 shot group over the log prone - not as tight as the gun does off the bench, but close enough that day.  The difference in that particular gun as-rested over the chunk (left her bounce), compared to offhand, was approximately 1 1/2" of elevation at 50 yards.  Of course, a .40 doesn't bounce up off the bags, not like the .69.  I'm looking for someone who wants to shoot THAT one, prone, off a chunk.

Even Taylor's little (heavy) .50 made a purple spot on his arm from about 60 or 70 shots prone, altogether.

When I shoot the smoothbore of bags to check sighting and load grouping capability, I hold it as if shooting offhand, that way I don't find my shots going high or low, or to one side, unexpectedly - it shoots the same offhand as off the bags.  That's another gun I wouldn't want to shoot chunk with, even though 3 drams and a 310gr. ball don't kick much----offhand.