I kill one barrel accuracy of my Kodiak.

[beleg2]

Last week I have some problems trying to pull out a patched round ball from my Kodiak double rifle.
I have to hammer the ball out but I forget to use muzzle protection.
Yesterday I tried some patched RB and I found that right barrel paterns.
Today I return to try REALS as I always have good accuracy with them.
Shot two targets, one for each barrel and I put three left shots in less than 3” . Right barrel shots went everywhere 4th bullet never connect.
I can not see any difference on both crownings.
Should I try to smooth crowning and the barrel close to the muzzle with emery?
Any advise would help.
Thanks
Martin 

[Roger Fisher]

I'd check the patches out of that 'bad' barrel/   Are they tearing badly?? If so, 4-0 the barrel tightly on a jag to get rid of any burrs you may have torn up in the rifling.

That is what I would check first!

[William Worth]

Isn't there a "hang it & bang it" test to see if double barrels are tight together (it should ring with no dead sound indicating the barrels have come apart)?

[beleg2]

Thanks for your answers but I beg your pardon for my English.
I will try to explain my problem again.
I shoot RB and find that right barrels bullets hits every where, but left barrel shoots OK.
To confirm that there is a problem Y shoot again today with LEE R.E.A.L. (Rifling Enagraved At Loading) bullets. The rifle usually shots R.E.A.L.s very well, 3 to 4" but not today.
Thats why I think I have do something wrong to right barrel muzzle.
There is another option for this problem and it can be a "rest" problem bcause this rifle is affected by the way you shoot it. From 6 shots (right barrel) three were close, may be I was not concentrated when I shot the others.
I will try tomorrow again shoting only right barrel because.
Thanks
Martin
 

[Roger Fisher]

Thanks for your answers but I beg your pardon for my English.
I will try to explain my problem again.
I shoot RB and find that right barrels bullets hits every where, but left barrel shoots OK.
To confirm that there is a problem Y shoot again today with LEE R.E.A.L. (Rifling Enagraved At Loading) bullets. The rifle usually shots R.E.A.L.s very well, 3 to 4" but not today.
Thats why I think I have do something wrong to right barrel muzzle.
There is another option for this problem and it can be a "rest" problem bcause this rifle is affected by the way you shoot it. From 6 shots (right barrel) three were close, may be I was not concentrated when I shot the others.
I will try tomorrow again shoting only right barrel because.
Thanks
Martin
 

Wll  we hope it was the shooter rather than the rifle!!

[beleg2]

I have some hope that Im the problem.

I just shoot this target:


Most of the hole are together, I hope that I pulled R2 and R5 but Im not shure.
Only 4.75" from R6 and R5 (the fardest).
Thank for all the advises.
Martin

[Candle Snuffer]

Hello Martin,

I don't know much about double barrel rifles, though I once did hear that
there is a point where the two barrels "left and right" will intersect, and at
what range that is I'm not sure, but it seems to me I also heard the Kodiak
double barrel will intersect at 75 yards?

Now, with this said I do wonder if you should bench this rifle and shoot at
that distance (if in fact that is the intersect range - which someone on here
may know for sure), and see what kind of groups you get then?

I would also think that both barrels would have to be loaded exactly the
same to get equal results.  Where you go from there, I couldn't say, but good luck to you!

[Dan]

Properly regulated double rifles should never cross shots.

[BuffaloGun]

I have a Pedersoli double and they are both dead on at just over 70 yards.
Short & long of that they are off a few inches one side or another, but still on the old 8' paper plate test.
You might want to start with Roger's thought about some burrs on the barrel if there is no sign of a muzzle problem.

[beleg2]

Thanks for all the answers.
I have found that my rifle is very sensible to the way I shot it.
If I shot without rest it shots OK if I shot it from rest I have to be very careful on the way I use it. If I use the rest very lightly, only to reduce movement there is no problem. I think those shots outside the target are because I “rest” too much.
As you can see on this target. I shoot each barrel on corresponding target. Most of the shots are very good and  into less than 4” but I have those from the right barrel R1, R3 and R4.
My theory is that either pull them, rest too much weight on the rest or mistake the target (R1).
The left barrel have a better trigger pull.



What gives me some hope is that there is a group and some off shots. I belive that if the barrel was damaged not group could be posible.

Thanks
Martin

[northmn]

Some other thoughts.  I have a cheap bore light taht permits me to inspect ML bores, so that if you had one you could check for damage.  ML barrels do not always shoot the same load.  You may just need to experiment with patching and ball size on both barrels to see if there is a difference.  Some used the doubles with one barrel as a short range barrel and one for longer ranges with different loads in each barrel.  If the right barrel is good for up to 50 yards then you may not have a problem.  Precision is relative, some like to be able to hit game others seem to want to be able to hit field mice at 100 yds.

DP

[Daryl]

Keep shooting the rifle, Martin.  I suspect you damaged the side of perhaps a couple lands with the rod when hammering out the ball that was stuck.  This damage might not be visible to the eye and therefore isn't too bad. It will shoot itself to health if not extreme. It looks as if it's getting there already.  The re-test of the REAL's showed this possible damage since the left barrel's shooting remained the same, only the right barrel changed. I assume you held the gun for all shots in the same manner.  So much is left to speculation, that a positive diagnosis is impossible, but we can guess.

 Double rifles are very particular to the way they are held, as you've now found out.  The British stood at a bench in a shooting postion holding the gun as if firing offhand. The bench top was of the correct height to allow the gun tester to lean into it and place his left hand on a sand bag for a rest.  He then shot a left, right and another left right, somtimes 4 times each barrel to test the regulation.  If you sit at a bench, I suggest you hold the gun as if shooting offhand, with the left hand on the bag and your right elbow on the table, with no rear bag.  This will allow the gun to recoil properly.  I used this method when developing round ball loads for my double 12 many years ago. This gave me identical results as when shooting offhand with repeatable accuracy.

 I still don't like the idea of someone shooting relatively loose fitting slugs in a muzzleloading double due to the possibility of the second barrel's bullet moving foreward under recoil.

 Pedersoli guns aren't regulated as the word suggests.  Regulation involves picking a load and trying the barrels with that load. If the barrels don't shoot that load, they are separated and wedges are inserted to adjust the impacts. The barrels are re-soldered and tried again, repeating this process until the barrels shoot THAT load to the sights, striking in a paralell pattern, with group centres exactly the bore axis apart at all ranges. That is proper regulation. As Dan noted above, the bullets or balls should never cross. This is the ultimate in regualation, seldom achieved, but strived for.  If the balls or bullets cross, they diverge past that range, continually spreading apart farther and farther - not good if they cross at close range, obviously.  Pedersoli barrels are aligned horizontally and brazed together once, when made - done.  Pedersoli takes the chance the owner will try many different loads of balls or bullets to find one that shoots close enough he can live with it.  Their double .58's and 12 bores are case in point. One chap with one found it crossed at 25 yards with normal 150gr. 1 1/2 Swiss hunting charges. He sent it back and they merely returned it with a different set of barrels (or a new gun as they weren't the same barrels). This time, it shot both barrels together at 100 yards with is 150gr. charge of 1 1/2 Swiss. He was then happy.

[beleg2]

Thank for your answers.
Daryl,
I suspect I do not hold the rifle the same when shoot each barrel as right lock have heavier trigger pull. I shot it first and take me more time and in some cases I have to lower the rifle and try again. Instead, when shooting the left barrel, I do it in less than 10 seconds.
I will try to shot the other way, left then right and see if it “regulates”.
This rifle shoots very well considering it is not regulated. If I do not consider 5 "fliers" from right barrel I put 10 shots from both barrels in less than 4” (50 meters).
I also will try to shoot off hand and see if its me. I suspect (hope) this is the problem because most fliers are up and left.

From your experience, do muzzle damage produce a big group or a group and fliers as my rifle?

Thanks to all for your advises and support.
Some time is difficult to find experts at hand.
Martin

[Daryl]

Damaged muzzles usually just open the group, not shoot to one particular spot, I think.

 Some 'shooters' regulated their own doubles by filing the muzzles on the sides, tops, bottoms or all three to get a particular load to shoot together.   Filing on the outside 1/2 of the tubes would make the balls shoot more towards the centre, while filing on the top would make a barrel print lower, bottom to print higher, centre 1/2 to make it shood wider. This was evident on some original American made doubles as made by Colt. I domn't know if any Reed double sexist that have this 'filed-in' characteristic.

 Another type of 'damage' is to 'oval' the bore, something that is fairly easily done to a thin barrel at the muzzle. An oval bore will probalby dably 'burn' or 'shred' the patch as the ball leaves. A slight oval top, bottom of sides may have th same effect as 'filing' and therefore cause the stringing shots.  Different holds on the rifle, of course, will have the same effect.

 Fix one thing at a time. First of all make your holds identical.  I'd probably 'fix' the bad trigger, though, to get them closer to the same pull.  It is the second barrel that 'should' be harder to pull, not the first, which is usually the right barrel.  Elmer keith,on the other hand, preferred to shoot the left barrel first, letting the recoil shove his hand further up on the wrist to grab the front trigger for the second shot. He had small hands, whereas my meat hook hands don't need the recoil's help to change triggers.  I fire the front trigger first.

  I suggest that if the left trigger is good, as in it doesn't fire if both are cocked and the front is pulled, then repair the front trigger's sear engagement to the same pull or slightly less and then always fire the front trigger first.  The beauty of the double is to be able to fire quickly, a right and left (left if needed).  You can't do that if both aren't cocked.  If the gun 'doubles' when one of the triggers is pulled then the triggers need repair (angle of the engagement).  This is why the right trigger is usually lighter than the left. It is usually fired first, therefore can have a lighter pull for better accuracy.

[chapmans]

  Daryl,
  I'm not sure if Elmer Keith's hands were small when he was younger but in 1976 I shook hands with him at the NSGA (National Sporting Goods Association) Show in Chicago, at the McCormick Place and to me his hands seemed huge, it's the one thing I really remember about him, it may have been because they were swollen from arthritis but they seemed huge, he was also chewing on an unlit cigar.
 I was there with Don Kammerer and we were invited by CVA because Don built the prototype of the CVA Mt. Rifle and they were promoting it heavily about that time.
 Regards, Steve

[beleg2]

Thanks Daryl,
If left barrel still shoots better I was condering change triggers on the trigger plate so front trigger shots left barrel.
But first I have to see if there is no change in shooting patern when I revert shooting order. I have read that some rifles do not "like" to shoot left barrel first. As this is a hunting rifle I much prefer to shot the more accurate barrel first.
A gunsmith have lighten triggers as much as he could but it is still to heavy for me.
Another point is to shot at only one target for I think I shot the wrong target one time.  . I shot two target because most of the time I have not a friend at hand to tell me with hole is from wich barrel, but I much preffer to shot at only one target.
You have to write a book or some papers. I have some of your posts here and on another forum printed for my files.

Thanks
Martin

[Daryl]

Getting the front trigger to shoot the left barrel might work for you.  On the other hand, if the right barrel will group into 2" or 2 1/2" at 50 yards, I'd just go ahead and use it the way it is.  By all means try keeping your shooting form (stance, sight picture and pull) identical for both barrels, regardless of the pulls. I don't really see how a heavy trigger would change that.  Consistancy is of vital importance in shooting BP - more so than smokeless, due to ignition and barrel time time.  You've said that the gun goups into 4" at 50 yards. That should kill pigs just fine at that range, but might not be good enough for farther shooting.  In the States and abroad, many hunters did well with guns that did not shoot their barrels together, even to extended ranges like 150 yards by learning where each barrel shot and holding accordingly. This took much practise to become a natural responce to whichever trigger they were squeezing.

Thankyou for your kind coments.

[beleg2]

I want to thank you all for your advises and help.
I shoot today and the rifle is Ok.
The problem is me, if I hold the rifle it shoots into 3 or 4" at 50 meters but If I put much weight on the rest I get some wild shots.
I can get all my shots into a CD and this is what i can do offhand.
I beg your pardon for my confusion.
Thanks
Martin

[Daryl]

No problem, Martin- keep practising. Keeping shots left and right on a CD at 50 yards is good shooting - even for a single barreled gun.

[beleg2]

" Keeping shots left and right on a CD at 50 yards is good shooting"

Not counting some fliers.
Thanks
Martin