A question about horns and bags

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Something struck me the other day and I would like to hear your opinions.  We have a great group of horn buildders and bagmakers on this site. I have made a couple so I have some idea of just how well done this are.  AND how much work!! Here is my observation:

I see several finely made banded horns with turned antler tips etc and I would guess that back in the day they would have been made in a horner's shop that was probably right next door to the silversmith, watchmaker and gunmaker in a pretty well settled area of the country........ Maybe even made in a horn factory in Philadelphia or some other big city???  Fine, well finished and precise work.

Then I see these "citified" horns paired up with what I would call homemade frontier rough shot bags???  They don't seem to fit together to my eyes.........now I may be wayyyy off base and have some wierd notions about these horns and bags but the difference between relatively fine art and crude folk art or just plain utilitarian work seems significant.....not that there is anything wrong with any of those styles.

A small simple homemade county horn with a rough cutshaped frontier bagis a great piece of Americana... A finely finished banded horn with a finely finished bag apparently made by a professional harnessmaker/bootmaker or such is also a great piece of Americana....


Your thoughts???   Set me straight here please....

[bigbat]

I dont think you are off base.

[Randy Hedden]

Tim,

I think what you are seeing is the mating of two very popular items in their categories.  The grungy pouches with odd bits of hair on the flap, rough, uncut, flap edges, pulled and repaired stitches and other obvious crude repairs have been gaining in popularity for several years.  Just my personal observation, but the PA screw tip type horns and the southern banded horns also seem to be very popular with today's buyers. 

In light of the demand for these two items, it only makes sense that a maker who wants to make a pouch and horn combo today would mate the two together.  What was mated together eons ago seems to have little bearing on what is done today.

Randy Hedden

[rich pierce]

True enough.  At Dixons they said that they judged the horn/bag/cootermints combos as to whether they belonged together or not.  Good idea for that sort of judging.

I think most folks don't think about how their kit fits together.  I had a wake up call when a guy asked me why I wanted a hand-forged-looking knife if I was going to portray a colonial gunsmith.  He said a gunsmith's knife should reflect fine and latest craftsmanship; perhaps a nice stylish bone or ivory handled knife with engraved bolsters.  His outfit should be that of a craftsman of the better sort; perhaps not quite Paul Revere, but maybe a fellow striving for that look.  It made me think.  For a minute, LOL.

[T.C.Albert]

I have no research that can back this opinion up, but when I think about your question, and I contemplate similar ones all the time, I tend to assume that a simple spring pole type reciprical lathe is capable of making all of the the components of an applied tip, banded horn...while a true screw tip requires a professional type treadle lathe and some fairly sophisticated tooling like taps, dies etc...because of that assumption I wonder if applied tip banded horns could often have been the product of more rural and less sophisticated shops, and as such perhaps could find themselves paired with more individualistic homespun type bags.

Thinking even more along these lines, deer hides from the hide trade were carted to and bartered in some of the biggest port towns and trade centers in the colonies...with all of the fine workmanship available to the longhunters who brought their hides in to these centers, why would they settle for rough equipment at all ...unless it was pure logistics and economics? Its another assumption, but it seems that those professional hunters who used and relied upon their equipment the most, would also tend to aquire the very best if they could?
TCA....

[smylee grouch]

I think your on to something Doc. I wonder about the same thing when I look at a realy great looking rifle with a great finish that has alot of character marks but hardly any scraches on the frizzen. They just dont go together.   Gary

[Tim Crosby]

Let’s think about this; a horn may have been though many bags, MAY have been part of a set to start with but they may have been separated somewhere along the line, horn shot off or broken, grabbed bag and not horn as danger approached, fell and smashed horn, etc…   So  you could have a professionally made bag and a homemade horn out of need.  Maybe you had a homemade bag and horn but after a battle you picked a horn up as a trophy and or because it looked nice and used it, replacing your home spun horn.  Horns seem to have outlasted their bags in a much greater proportion than bags. I am sure to that over the life of an existing bag or horn someone may have paired up a set that were there never a set to start with. 
 I think there are many good reasons why a new horn/fancy horn would be with a homemade bag and vice versa.

Tim C.   

[Jefferson58]

I think this is a very interesting question to consider as well. I think everyone has made some good points about it too.

In studying screw tip horns with Art DeCamp, Art provided an excellent overview of the history and production method for these pieces. We tend to view them as beautiful, professionally-made pieces that were a cut above the standard homespun horn. In fact, it seems from Art's accounts that these things were made by the thousands in a total "factory production" environment. I don't think they took much time to consider the artistic side of what they were making. They had "X" amount of tip and base plug patterns, they carved, turned, and assembled them as quickly as possible, and put them on the market. While they are certainly nicer than a home-whittled piece, I am not sure they were really perceived much that way then, other than the fact that they were "purchased."

I am probably wrong, but it is just a thought from my perspective. Dr. Tim, your observations are very well taken. Thanks for bringing it up.

Jeff

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I think it may just be my need for order...country made bag/country made horn...and factory made or city craftsman made horn/factory made or city craftsman made bag.......
I always seem to see the horn and bag sets on the apparel that the person might have worn....Fine linen breeches and wool frock over silk westkit....  vs. deerskin leggings and breechclout etc...


Then again it may have a lot more to do with the $$ the buyer had or the access he had for one reason or another as mentioned above....

[skillman]

A thought provoking question.
I think Jeff is on the track. I believe the screw tips were reasonably priced and widely available because of their mass production. At least in populated areas. I don't believe they were as valued then as now.
I also agree that frontier made horns and bags should be together. I'm not sure how much they worried about that back when. I just like the match.
Keep asking these insightful questions.
Steve

[smshea]

When  it comes to whats out there today, I absolutely agree with Randy that this trend is what today's market wants. I also agree with Jeff and think that the screw tips may not have had the higher standing in the period that we give them today. Interestingly enough I like my rifles with an aged look or at least some Faux ware and tear but I make and prefer my bags as new...go figure? I never really thought about that until I read this thread. I suppose that If I made or used an aged bag that was going to be paired with a screw tip, it too would have to be aged....even I don't think I could bring myself to dragging one of Art's horns around on the basement floor....just thinking out loud here?

[Leatherbelly]

I like these kinds of threads! I carry a F&I type horn with a Rev war type bag and a Rev war type rifle(JP Beck). ...and I'm 57years old. Hypothetically, I'm a F&I war veteran living in the Rev war period. I wanted this persona because of my age and to be period correct for the 1770's. Therefore I can see how some items could have carried forward in time and used in the present(1770's). After the F&I war, trophies of all sorts would have been picked up and used until they wore out including horns,bags, axes,guns,French,Brit and Colonial. JMHO.Any thoughts?

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have seen horns that were carried through generations so they were never with a bag or gun that always matched them.  Maybe even swapped owners a couple of times. However,as has been pointed out for the market people want things to match.

I have no need for order in just about anything and I like a mixmatched look myself.  My pouch and horn that I carry have alwasybeen together and they got together for that reason so nothing seems to out of place.  That takes years of use  and I have never seen an artist recreate that sort of look.

Coryjoe

[Joe Stein]

At Dixon's last week I got to part of Roland Cadle's Seminar.  He talked about documented information that a large contingent of Virginia(? can't remember for sure) riflemen showed up at Carlisle, Pa. during the Am. Rev. with only their rifles and shot pouches, no horns.  The quartermaster had to buy horns for them from the Philadelphia horn factories: several score DOZEN manufactured horns were purchased in a matter of days.  This gives credence to the idea of a fine horn being used with a perhaps-less-refined bag.

Maybe Roland will jump in here with some information and his thoughts.

-Joe

[Artificer]

I really enjoy threads like these and thanks to Dr. Boone for beginning the threads and to everyone for their additional posts.

During the period of the 18th through early 19th century, one would have seen all kinds of combinations of gear both old and new.  Older boys or young men would have had hand me downs along with less expensive items they made or purchased and perhaps something nice they received as a gift or through inheritance.  It has already been pointed out that items would have been replaced throughout one's life.  There are many reasons why someone's gear would not have "matched" in the period. 

Actually, any combination is "correct" as long as something being carried or used is not so ancient that it would not have lasted to the period one portrays and more importantly, not something from AFTER the period one is portraying. 

In my late 40's, I was portraying a Private Soldier in the Major's Coy of the Royal Highland 42nd Regiment (the Black Watch).  My Captain asked me why I was wearing such "fancy" shoe buckles in plain view of the crowd.  (They weren't "fancy" just a bit bigger and in the same style as every other enlisted man's shoe buckles.  It was just my feet are so big and they fit better than the "usual" and slightly smaller buckles.) Had to think kind of quick as the crowd was watching and listening.  I told him through my long years of service; I sent most of my pay home to my family but had to confess I had wasted too much of the little money left over on strong drink and other vices.  So I had decided I wanted "something" to show for all the years of bearing the King's Musket.  So I purchased buckles that were still "authorized" for a Private Soldier as to their style, but to wanted to have something nice to show for my service.  My Captain had to suppress a laugh.  After the inspection was over and when we were back in camp I explained to him that he might think about replacing the Enlisted Men's shoe buckles on his shoes because he was now an Officer - with a grin on my face.

Now at age 56 I'm putting together plans for the pouch and horn I always wanted, but could not afford in my earlier years.  Something like Leatherbelly, it will be of F&I vintage horn and maybe a pouch of the same or just slightly later period because I'm also old enough to have been a veteran of the F&I war and carry the same things in the Rev War.  I LIKE F&I period horns better and that's my reason or excuse to have one.  Anything of that period is also "correct" for the Rev War period.  My pouch and horn will be slightly fancier and better made items than I carried when younger as well.  Heck, I'm old enough I can splurge a little on "Male Jewelry" but not go hog wild.  Grin.

However, when I pass on - that horn and pouch will be passed down to a much younger man in the family - just as things were done in the period. 

Gus