Silk purse from a sow's ear

[Curt Larsen]

OK, I'm a sucker for nice wood.  A while back I picked up a nice close tiger striped Hatfield stock with a brocken toe.  I couldn't resist it and repaired the toe with new wood and put the stock back in my things to mess with someday rack.  In the meantime, I found an unused Hatfield barrel and put that away too.  Now between a couple of other projects, I pulled the stock out again and stripped off all of the old finish and scraped it down to good wood in an atempt to remove as much off the old stain as possible.  Now, I'm going to rebuild it.  (Yeah, yeah, I know, Hatfields are doo doo etc.)  In any event, I'm going to do it and maybe pass it down to a grandson some day as a first gun.  So here is the rub.  L&R now makes a replacement lock for it and I'm torn between getting one of these or one of Jim Chambers Early Ketland locks.  I may get the L&R since it has the sear in the right place.  A decent lock is no problem but the trigger is.  The mortise cut into this stock is a long one apparently for a double or single set trigger.  I've tried a couple of my Davis double set triggers for fit.  They are the right width for the mortise, but I'd have to add wood forward to be covered by a new trigger guard and open up the mortise in back or shorten the bar to fit the mortise.  Have any of you messed with one of these before (and admit it) and if so what type of triggers did they originally have?  I'm redoing the forestock completely with correct barrel pins and under lugs.  I'll also add correct ramrod pipes etc.  Can any of you give me some advice on a trigger?

Curt

[northmn]

If you are going to replace the lock I think you might as well replace the trigger and guard also.  The DST on some of these were not so great either.  Good luck.

DP

[JCKelly]

Not exactly, but before you choose a lock make sure it actually fits the gun. Not just has the same plate outline. Check a friend's lock if possible.
I find on my Pedersoli Frontier (copy of Hatfield?) and Jaeger rifles that the Italian plate differs from the American in thickness, though the outline is very close to a Siler. Likewise the American made lock supposed to substitute for Pedersoli's "Lott" lock, on their Indian Trade Musket, has a mainspring too wide to fit in the lock recess, it runs into the barrel.

[J.D.]

Not exactly, but before you choose a lock make sure it actually fits the gun. Not just has the same plate outline. Check a friend's lock if possible.
I find on my Pedersoli Frontier (copy of Hatfield?) and Jaeger rifles that the Italian plate differs from the American in thickness, though the outline is very close to a Siler. Likewise the American made lock supposed to substitute for Pedersoli's "Lott" lock, on their Indian Trade Musket, has a mainspring too wide to fit in the lock recess, it runs into the barrel.

If the American made Hatfield lock is supposed to fit the Ped Lott mortise, then why not try Davis' Tryon lock? It should be a good lock; certainly better than a Hatfield, and IMHO, better than the L&R, and might fit right in with a little work.

If you have Track's catalog, make a tracing of the lock and see if it fits the existing mortise. Make sure that the distance between the sear bar to the center of the pan matches the original lock to make sure that it will work.

IMHO, if you are building a gun  around this stock that is intended to be used , I suggest getting a decent barrel. Some Hatfield barrels shot well enough, some didn't, so IMHO, being sure of having a good barrel is a $#@* shoot.

God bless

[jasontn]

i just rebuilt a pedersoli version of a hatfield, the blue ridge. if the hatfield stock is similar theres a lot of wood you can take off, but the ramrod channel on mine was very close to the bottom of the forend. i tihnk it has a 1/4 inch web between the bottom of the barrel channel and ramrod groove. VTI gun parts will have triggers, but they are expensive. mine needs a mainspring and im thinking ill just replace the whole lock.

[J.D.]

VTI gun parts will have triggers, but they are expensive. mine needs a mainspring and im thinking ill just replace the whole lock.

I'm not a big fan of Ped replacement parts.

Ped replacement parts probably won't be any better than the current parts. IMHO, for less cash than a new lock, and considerably less than a new Ped lock, having that lock rebuilt by someone who knows what they are doing will give you a much better functioning, more reliable lock.

Track has replacement mainsprings for those locks, BTW.

IMHO, the current inlet can be filled so higher quality triggers can be inlet. Personally, I would go with Davis triggers, though they may be more trouble to install.

IMHO, if you are going to take the time and make the effort to build a gun around this Hatfield stock, For goodness sake, take a little more time to use good parts. IMHO, using OEM Hatfield or Pedersoli parts will only give Hatfield or Pedersoli quality...and IMHO, both are sorely lacking.

Using good quality parts in this rebiuld will give you a good rifle that you can count on, and one that will be a pleasure to shoot. IMHO, based on my experience with Hatfields and Pedersoli clones, the same can't always be said for them.

God bless

[Roger Fisher]

"Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear!!!

You sound much like an insurance underwriter I once knew

[J.D.]

"Can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear!!!

No, but a real nice triangular leather pouch can be made from a sow's ear, if enough care is taken throughout the process. 

God bless

[Curt Larsen]

Well, you guys have gotten to me.  I will cut down another 7/8" barrel that I have and add Davis triggers.  The stock will be completely reshaped and reworked. 

[Jim Cook]

I think this would be an interesting project.
I would like to see a series of pictures as it progresses.
Thanks Curt

Well, you guys have gotten to me.  I will cut down another 7/8" barrel that I have and add Davis triggers.  The stock will be completely reshaped and reworked. 

[Curt Larsen]

OK Jim, I'll do that.  I don't generally like to document my blunders, but what the heck.  Finished products with all the errors corrected are much better looking.  The Davis double set triggers arrived yesterday.

[J.D.]

Just an afterthought, I suggest pinning the stock rather than using the screws that Pesersoli uses. I don't remember if the Hatfield pinned the barrel or screwed it on like the current Ped clone.

If you need to drill  pin holes, I suggest leaving the forestock somewhat square until the pins are located and holes drilled.

God bless

[Curt Larsen]

J.D., I plan to pin the new barrel to the stock and will leave the forestock as square as possible until the barrel is in and then shape it appropriately.  Yes, the stock came with those screw in holes in the ramrod channel and I plugged them with 3/8" maple plugs made with my plug cutter.  I also filled in the routed out slot at the rear end of the barrel inlet.  I think the Davis double set triggers will go in alright but I'll have to add a little wood at both ends of the mortise.  I agree with you on ped parts.  They are not worth the bother.  I did try the L&R replacement lock for the lock mortise and it did not fit.  I followed your advice and had a look at the Davis Tryon lock in the TOW catalog.  It is too big.  I know that you and others don't like L&R locks, but I tried an L&R Queen Anne that I have on another gun and it fits the mortise.  I've looked at all of the other possibles in the TOW catalog and can't find another good candidate so I'll have to go with the Queen Anne lock.  I'm sending the L&R replacement lock back to Track today.  The unused Hatfield barrel that I have has a very long breech plug in it, maybe a full inch.  That makes it pretty impossible to locate a touch hole where it is supposed to be for the original Hatfield lock or the replacement lock.  So, I'll either cut down one of the Green Mountain barrels I have or buy a new shorter barrel.  I will document this project as I go along and post photos when I have this done.

Curt

[mike e]

If the un-used Hatfield barrel doesn't already have a touch-hole, couldn't you drill a bore sized hole in the end of the breech plug like a patent breech? Then drill a touch-hole where you need it?

[J.D.]

Sounds like a plan, Curt.  I think posting you progress would be a good lesson for anyone new to working on longrifles, as there are usually several areas that are hard to work through when doing this type of rebuild, so not only would you get good advise to hlep you through the rough spots, but newer builders would get some good ideas on how to proceed with similar projects.

I think that Hatfield barrel has the same patent style breech as the Ped Frontier rifle, which is a clone of the Hatfield. The  antechamber in Ped breech is only about .24, so it's small. I don't know what dia the antechamber on the Hatfield breech might be, so try several small diameter jags, tips or whatever, to test the well, so to speak.

God bless

[Captchee]

JD. If I could make a couple suggestions.
  
 You might take a look at the double set triggers made by Ron Long .
 The trigger plates are very long for and aft .  You  should be able to cut them down to fit your need .
 
 If your going with the Davis trigger set. Then I would either make a new trigger plate or  take the set apart  and add onto to the existing one so as to fill the existing  inlet  .

 I would also purchase new hardware . You will end up with a lot nicer piece


As to the lock .

 Do you have the ability to make your own lock plate ?
 If so then what you would need to do is look for a lock with the correct  sear placement as well a  pan placement.  .  Relying on the sear placement alone can sometimes end up with a pan that’s far to far forwards   or to short in some cases .

Then put all the parts onto your  own lock plate .
I have done that many times .


As to  the breech . I think the others here are correct . The Pedersoli barrel  should have an improved breech  .
 What I do with these is take them out and enlarge the   chamber and flash channel  . Then taking a breech scraper of the proper bore size , I then modify it so that  it will fit into that chamber . This will allow you to properly clean out that chamber

As to the screwing to the barrel issue .
 Myself I don’t like the screw application that much either .
To the point I  also do away with it .
 BUT  in reality  it’s a mater of preference.   I have seen underlugs placed on barrels that are far deeper then  what the screw holes go  .
 I would also agree with the statement of drilling your barrel pins before you shape the forestock .


 Now a question for you . Now im not putting you down here in any way .
 In fact 2 thumbs up  to you .
 In fact to tell the truth  I would probably find myself doing just what you are doing .

 But I have to ask ,If your going to the expense of replacing the triggers, lock , hardware and barrel  .
 Then re drilling the stock and such for  all those parts . .to include inletting the new tang for the  breech plug  on the new barrel
 Whats the reasoning for  using the stock ?
 I know you have the stock but  for 75-100.00 you could get a very nice stock  precarve  from Dic at Pecatonica  and not have the issues with  trying to adapt parts to pre existing inlets or cut down barrels to fit ?

 Now if you stay with the same barrel  then I would  use the stock you have .

 Anyway just some thoughts

"Edit  for spelling "

[Roger Fisher]

Sounds like ol Capt is on the mark.

[Curt Larsen]

Poor J.D.  He's getting flak intended for me.  Well a lot of this advice is well taken.  What I have found out so far is that the Hatfield breech plug is not a patent breech.  I've probed it and it is solid as far as I can tell.  It is just over an inch long.  I also can't get it to break free to remove it to drill it out to make a patent breech.  I thought this was going to be a lot easier than it has turned out to be.  With regard to new parts, I was just going to use parts that I had on hand.  Also, the wood is much nicer than I could get from Pecatonica or other supplier for $75.  At this point if I get too frustrated, I'll haul out one of my nice blanks and start a new gun.  I have lots of other ways to go.

Curt Larsen

[J.D.]

Poor J.D.  He's getting flak intended for me.  Well a lot of this advice is well taken.  What I have found out so far is that the Hatfield breech plug is not a patent breech.  I've probed it and it is solid as far as I can tell.  It is just over an inch long.  I also can't get it to break free to remove it to drill it out to make a patent breech.  I thought this was going to be a lot easier than it has turned out to be.  With regard to new parts, I was just going to use parts that I had on hand.  Also, the wood is much nicer than I could get from Pecatonica or other supplier for $75.  At this point if I get too frustrated, I'll haul out one of my nice blanks and start a new gun.  I have lots of other ways to go.

Curt Larsen

Awe shucks, I'm a big boy, Curt. I can take the heat. 

That said, I do appreciate Captchee's input. I know someone who has a Ped Frontier who is talking about refurbishing his rifle, so I will share the good Capt's advise with him.   

God bless

[Captchee]

sorry JD , for some reason i though you had started the post .
 again i apologize for the  confusion

.

Also, the wood is much nicer than I could get from Pecatonica or other supplier for $75.

 is this a custom stock or is it a factory upgrade , replacment stock ?
 yes they made those as well .
  i know becouse i at one time carried them in my shop . both in walnut and in maple . as you can see i still have one of the  maple stocks . its moderatly figured but   not real quality  when it comes to wood

 some of them had some very nice figure .

 not to argue the point  but i have to ask really ?
 is it better then these ?
 not one was over 90.00. In fact all but the half stock , were all under 75.00
 NONE were  high grade stocks . All has some issue , IE minrial stains , small feather cracks in the butts “which got cut out “
 The Lancaster even had a worm hole












 remember figure is just bling  nothing more .  a good stock will be hard . just because a stock is made from hardwood , doesn’t mean its  Hard .
 but i have found that dic  for the most part  grades his wood very low . thus i always get far , Far better then what  he states .
 And if you willing to take something with IMO minor defects . You can get a very VERY nice stock for  the price I stated . Al depends on what he has on hand

as to the plug ,  take your RR and drop it down the bore tell it touches the breech face . then mark the rod.
take the rod out an lay it along the barrel . mark the barrel .
 if the flash hole is  considerably back of that mark , then its an improved breech .
 The Hatfield barrel I have right here , the flash hole is back of the breech face by 1/2 of an inch
  I just pulled this plug  from a  blue ridge  barrel
 If your barrel is from a Pedersoli / investment arms , hatfield , blue ridge ……..
 This should be what you have




as to taking the plug out .
 have you removed the flashole liner ?
 if not you will need to .
as you can see the liner  goes very deep . AND not only does it   thread through the barrel wall but also through the full  wall thickness of the plug






Anyway , good luck to you and be safe   i was just making a sugestion

[Curt Larsen]

Thanks Captchee.  You have obviously spent a lot of time with Hatfields and the various clones (and willing to admit it).  The stock I have has figure and finish much like the first one you show with the beavertail cheek piece.  This stock has the normal cheekpiece though.  The breech plug you show has about the right length that I find on the barrel I have.  This barrel is unused and has never been drilled for a touchhole or fitted with a vent liner.  I've probed the barrel with a 15/16" ramrod and a long copper wire to look for the recess that you show but couldn't find it.  Maybe I missed it.  I'm glad that you posted all of these photos.  They explain a lot.  I thought this would just be an easy project between serious ones and hasn't turned out that way.  There are always surplus Hatfield parts showing up out there on ebay and elsewhere and coming from Missouri where they were born.  I know everyone turns their noses up on them and the various Pedersoli products (with good reason), but I think that what you have shown us will eventually turn up on Google searches for redoing Hatfields and help a lot of people out.  The precarves you show all look pretty nice as well.  Where are they available for future reference and for others to know?  I don't know what to think about this breech plug.  I'll check it again to see if it has that drilled recess.  I can't get this breech plug out so I can't check it in plain light.  Thanks again for all the info.

Curt 

[Captchee]

  Yep  redoing a factory piece can at times be challenging

If it hasn’t  ever been shot then you should be good to go .
  The breech may in fact not be drilled yet . That would be good .
 The chamber in the  plug I posted  is on ¼  .  So with a 15/16 rod , you will never feel it

 As you can see the  breech plug  design has a  neck to it . IE  a section that extends forward  of the threads.
 Now its been a while since I messed with these but  . The plugs were  not tapered and machine set like on a CVA or traditions  . However they do seat them very tight at the factor  and if its set around . The plug may have started to rust alittle around that neck .  

 You will not get them out by sticking a bar in the lock bolt hole  .. You will need a heavy wrench  with a long arm .  At one time I had a Pedersoli breech plug tool .  It was nothing but a  30 inch steel bar with a hook at the end .. The inside of the hook fit the back of the plug .
 It worked real good for a couple of  times but  since it was mild steel . A stubborn plug would bend the hook
 What I now use is a Large cresant wrench . By large I mean the thing is 2ft long and the jaws a good 1 ¾ wide . The thing probably weighs 3 lbs
 Go down on get you some penetrating fluid .
 Most folks don’t realize this but  there are different penetrating fluids for different jobs .
 I like liquid wrench . . If I recall its specs are for  down to 30,000ths .
 Spray it down the bore  and let her set over night . It will penetrate around that neck .
 Once its set , take a hammer and  shock the back of the breech a couple times
 When you try to remove the breech , take a good tight fitting wretch with at least 24 inches of leverage  
 Put the barrel in a padded vice  and  go to work . The plug should pop .
 If you ever going to use the barrel for anything , your going to have to get that plug out of there anyway . So now is as good a time as any

As to the stocks .

 Let me start out by saying this .
 While the cost of these rifles are  relatively low . The parts cost are very , VERY high ..
 Back in 2004  . “my last price chart “ it  would cost a person over 1500.00 to build a Pedersoli Blue ridge  from parts . that’s 5X what the rifle sold for .
 Looking through my last price lists here , the lock alone ran 130.00 retail  and 115.00 whole sale .
 Mind you could by a much better lock from Jim chambers for that price , even today ..

 Anyway . Back prior  to that “ 1995 “  I was buying stocks strait from Pedersoli
 The  upgrade or premium stocks as they were called , I could get finished or un finished .
  They came in grades of  deluxe grade 7 and  a lower grade 5 . In both maple and walnut  
 Yours is probably one of the grade 7’s
 Back then when you could buy direct , I was paying  if I recall   around 150 .00 for the un finished  Pre carve  in grade 5 , maple . Walnut was in the 100.00 range . Finished ran 100 more for either.
When I bought in lots of 6

 But then  Pedersoli stopped selling direct completely and you had to go through their US importer for everything . That importer back in 2004 was Beauchamp & sons DBA Flintlocks Etc.
 The price went through the roof  and many things were no longer available
 In all fairness though , that was about the  dollar lost ground with the Euro .
 So the prices went up 22%  from 2003 -2004 .

So take  the stocks .  For the  Hatfield in 32 -50 cal,  the  finished walnut stocks  were running 325.00 retail
 Maple was 525.00. They also no longer listed a quality

 That barrel you have retailed for 325.00
 So in 2004 the cost of the barrel and  maple stock alone would run you 850.00.
 You could buy 2 new , complete  Hatfield rifles for that

 not to mention  for the price of the barrel you could buy a much better barrel from the likes of Getz  or Rice

 Im not sure  how things run now as I been out of that area of the market for many years . But I would Bet Flintlocks Etc is still running .
 If not im sure someone has taken their place . I cant imagine the prices have  gone down any

 If I can ever get caught up  I plan on providing my own replacement stocks again . But I been saying that for 3 years now  LOL

[Curt Larsen]

Thank Cap.  All of this information is good.  I'll try some liquid wrench on the plug and give it another go.  I don't have a crescent wrench that big.  I'll have to borrow one from a friend.  I totally agree with you on the price of Pedersoli and other Italian parts.  It makes no sense to use them given that ours are better quality and much cheaper.  Thankfully I don't have much invested in this.  I've promised to build a rifle for each of my three sons and have those ready to go with good wood and parts.  I just haven't wanted to start on them yet.  It will probably take me 1.5 years of messing with them to finish.  Oh well this gun building is good for the soul.

Curt