More on stains

[westbj2]

A month or so ago I said that I would give some initial impressions on the Gemini stains as a substitute for the Sherwin Williams product.
I did a few sample swatches this morning that are shown below.  The colors and hues shown look a little different in person so there is an issue of photography.  The clarity of the stain is very good, no "muddying" of the grain or color.  It dries at about the same rate as the SW stains.  Thins with methanol.  I have not checked any depth penetration or finish penetration yet.  My initial conclusion is that the Gemini stains will work fine.  The quart bottles were $25 ea.





The base stain that you see in the pictures noted 10-2-2-2 is 10 parts walnut, 2parts red, 2 parts yellow, and 2 parts orange.

The pic above from the top left.
Base stain over wiped with orange and yellow.  Right of that is walnut over wiped with orange and yellow.  Bottom left is base stain over wiped with red and orange. Bottom left is base stain over wiped with red and yellow.  The center is just a coat of shellac for reference.  Shellac was wiped over the color swatches as well



This pic shows the base coat alone and the lower one walnut or brown alone.

Should be able to come up with about any color needed with a little experimentation

Jim Westberg.

[B Shipman]

Seems like it would be a good system for restoration or making a documentary copy finish.

[wwpete52]

Do you ever use  Aquafortis?

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Jim, are these stains available like this and where? Are they a dye or pigment stain? I believe the Sherwin Williams products are dyes which dye the whole grain the same, right? Lots of questions! But these look cool!
Susie

[Dphariss]

Are they meant for outdoor use?? I.E. Do then react to sunlight?

Dan

[t.caster]

I've seen similar NGR stains locally for about $18-19/qt. by a different brand name. I would save some money by making orange with a yellow + red mix.

[westbj2]

Backing up a bit on this thread.  My initial post concerned John Bivins staining article in Rifle Magazine back in the early 80's where he talked about using Sherwin Williams NGR stains.  I used them for many years and finally ran out so I went to SW and found that current prices of their product were prohibitive.  $122 a quart!!!   Another member of this board told me that the Gemini products were compatible with the SW stains he too had been using.  So that is where the Gemini stains come in.  They are dye stains.
Here is a link to their product: http://www.gemini-coatings.com/p/12420/Default.aspx
 
The stains are intended for indoor work as were the SW stains.  As to the resistance to sun light, I suspect there will be some minor change over time.  I say this because John made a rifle for me in about 1981 which I know was stained with the SW stains.  I also had an English Officers fusil by Monte Mandarino also stained with the SW stains.  Both did lighten very slightly over the 10 years or so that I had them.  The degree of 'fading' they did I never considered a problem.

Yes,  there are other manufacturers of NGR stains.  Behlen makes Solar-Lux stain but I found it does not penetrate like the SW stains.  As noted above, I have not determined yet the penetration qualities of these Gemini stains.  About all I know for sure at this point is that they appear to be a good alternative to the SW stains.

As Bill noted, I use them to match existing color for the most part. 

Jim Westberg

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim, thanks for the info on these stains. Plus all your homework testing the out!

I see you may have 'retired', but you're still in the game! Good to hear from you.

Acer

[westbj2]

Dont panic when you see the picture below, I am in the process of converting it to flint    I used the Gemini stains on the American walnut palm rest shown and as you can see in even in the picture it came out very close (its better in person).  What i found most interesting is the apparent deep penetration of the stain.  There was no appreciable change in the color after wet sanding the finish between coats.  In this regard the stains seem even better than the SW product.   Still open questions remain on how it penetrates hard maple and the issue of finish sanding sharp corners on maple.  So far so good.
Jim Westberg

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

The difference in stains makes a huge difference to the builder. Dyes penetrate and stain everything in the grain structure the same. Pigment stains start life as a powder, are mixed in solution with alcohol and a variety of solvents (which by the way is the secret to the quality) and act differently when applied. The pigment stains will lay in the cell structure in masse and creates the concentration of the color. The alcohol and compatible solvent evaporate and leave the pigment deposited in the structure. (I only know this cause we have a chemist make our own line of stains in response to the doubling in cost of the other major stain maker). ANyway, The solvent, beautiful thing it is, is the secret to how the stain enters the grain, how fast it penetrates, and how smoothly these transitions can take place. In other words, a blend line! Our stain solvent blends so much better and doesn't leave a hard line between the applications.
Fading.... Good comments. All will fade, no matter what, some worse than others, regardless of indoor or outdoor. The industry answer to this is the finish you put on. I worked with our chemist to develop a finish to eliminate fading. So far so good! Its a satin, not a gloss, and is as close as I can get with a modern finish to the look of some of the old. Its UV protectant, so no fading under it. We call it DuraFin. Used with boiled linseed oil to thin it as much as 30% buys you a little finishing time, but not much. I put it on by hand rubbing and its pretty quick. Additional coats are optional.
Susie

[t.caster]

Susanne, do you sell these stains now? I don't find them in your e-catalog. Maybe I'm not looking good....it's hard to at my age

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Susanne, do you sell these stains now? I don't find them in your e-catalog. Maybe I'm not looking good....it's hard to at my age

Yup! It should be under stains in the website....... although I freely admit I have not been a victim of my own site (Hah!) But they should be in there! Try the part numbers below:
30350 Lancaster Red Brown
30370 Curly Nut Brown
30340 Brightgold Honey Maple
25160 Dark Cherry
30330 Lehigh Valley Red
32370 Color Rich (a chocolate brown with a tint of red)
30360 TrDark Walnut (our deepest walnut, but not black!)
25140 RedBrown Walnut (the closest to the walnut we have around here)
25190 DuraFyn Finish
25170 Sanding Sealer

All Alcohol based, and all compatible with Laurel Mountain, all able to be covered with any oil based finish besides our own too. Stains (in 4ounce bottles) are $7.95   Sealer is $5.95 and the Finish is $6.95

You don't like them, send them back, satisfaction guaranteed! I use them everyday!
Susie