Aqua Fortis: I have to ask

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  I have read Chuck's book on the finishing part (stains)  Aqua Forte is Nitric Acid and is diluted 3 to 4 times.  Since I don't have access to Nitric and will be using Viniger&Iron. Do I dilute this the same way?  Or use it full strenth?  There has been ALOT of discussion on the matter but I've never seen this particular question brought up.


    Rich

[Tom Currie]

Rich, The mixing ration for AF really doesnt apply towards Vinegar and Iron. If I were you I would buy a small quantity of AF and test on scraps as weel as test some V and I and see what works best for you and the wood you are staining. Better to try different options and make sure  you get what you're looking for.

Vinegar and Iron is bit of a mystery to many of us .

[Dphariss]

Water is added to nitric because it will, unless excessively diluted, speed its reaction in dissolving the iron and creating ferric nitrate.

If you don't have nitric acid to make stain then use ferric nitrate crystals. Mix with water and apply.
Same effect on the wood or nearly so.
http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Ferric-Nitrate-100g-P6384C670.aspx
This is a lot faster and reliable than trying to make stain with vinegar.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Aquafortis (ready to use) is available at Track of the Wolf.

I would use ferric nitrate or find some acid and make my own.

Dan

[LynnC]

The Vin/Iron stain is used full strength as made.  As you've read, it may take a bit of experimentation to get a color you like.  Hope it works for you.......Lynn

[billd]

Rich,   
Just to clear up your post, Aqua Fortis is not nitric acid, it is made from nitric acid.   You mix the acid in about 3 or 4 parts water then add iron until it won't dissolve anymore.   Lots easier, safer and cheaper to just buy it. Easy to find, any muzzleloader supply store has it.  I don't have too much confidence in the vineger, some swear by it, just my opinion.
Bill

[Curt Larsen]

In a recent visit with Mike Gahagan, Mike stated that he did't neutralize his stocks after heating his AF treatment.  Instead, he seals the wood with shellac and then goes on with the final finish.  I've seen some of his stocks and ones that have been around for a while.  They are great.  I wondered what some of the rest of you thought about this technique

I have a special interest in that I generally use Laurel Mt. Forge stains and due to a stumble in my shop yesterday I got the stuff all over my hands and workbench.  YUK!!  There must be a better way.

Curt

[Acer Saccharum]

... due to a stumble in my shop yesterday I got the stuff all over my hands and workbench.  YUK!!  There must be a better way.

Curt

Had this been AF, everything in contact with it would be rusty by today.

I use AF to brown barrels and locks. Clean the barrel, coat with AF, and put it in a damp place for overnight. I use a damp box, which has a light bulb in the bottom for warmth to speed the rusting.

The cold blue, 44-40, is awful stuff, makes everything rust. I use it to antique steel and brass. Never for bluing, because it's so caustic.

[smylee grouch]

Please forgive me for asking a slightly off topic question, If I wanted to dilute some aquafortis, would I pour it into water or would I pour water into it?              Gary

[Jim Kibler]

Please forgive me for asking a slightly off topic question, If I wanted to dilute some aquafortis, would I pour it into water or would I pour water into it?              Gary

The acid should be poured into water. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

In a recent visit with Mike Gahagan, Mike stated that he did't neutralize his stocks after heating his AF treatment.  Instead, he seals the wood with shellac and then goes on with the final finish.  I've seen some of his stocks and ones that have been around for a while.  They are great.  I wondered what some of the rest of you thought about this technique

I have a special interest in that I generally use Laurel Mt. Forge stains and due to a stumble in my shop yesterday I got the stuff all over my hands and workbench.  YUK!!  There must be a better way.

Curt

Stain and seal with a 1# cut of dewaxed shellac flakes or buttonlac.  Just be sure you take it back to bare wood and burnish before you put oil varnish on.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

   Gary,
   
 Here is a little rhyme I learned in Chemisrty Class

 " Do what you otter add acid to water"

   Yes I studied to be a Chemist some 25 years ago,  What I learned would have ATF crawling up places I won't mention.  If people here were to sum me up in one word, It would be BOOM

                 Rich

[flintriflesmith]

Rich,   
Just to clear up your post, Aqua Fortis is not nitric acid, it is made from nitric acid.   You mix the acid in about 3 or 4 parts water then add iron until it won't dissolve anymore.   ... Bill

Bill,
Just for the sake of avoiding confusion I'd like to add this:
Aqua Fortis is the 18th-century name for nitric acid. If you see a period document, such as a gunsmith's inventory or store record, that includes Aqua Fortis it means the acid --- not the ferric nitrate solution made by dissolving iron in the acid. Only in modern times has the term Aqua Fortis come to be commonly used for the stain.
Gary

[billd]

Thanks Gary,  I never thought of it the way you explained it. I was looking at it in todays terms.  Walk into a store and ask for one or the other.   

Bill

[Dphariss]

Rich,   
Just to clear up your post, Aqua Fortis is not nitric acid, it is made from nitric acid.   You mix the acid in about 3 or 4 parts water then add iron until it won't dissolve anymore.   Lots easier, safer and cheaper to just buy it. Easy to find, any muzzleloader supply store has it.  I don't have too much confidence in the vineger, some swear by it, just my opinion.
Bill

The problem arises when the store bought stain is made with nitric adulterated with hydrochloric acid. Does not give the same color and tends to make the figure in the wood less sharp. It is also more likely to produce brown than reds.
So if not making your own and thus controlling the ingredients it may be best to buy the ferric nitrate crystals.
Dan

[keweenaw]

When you make your own AF from nitric acid and iron the acid is basically all used up producing the ferric nitrate from the iron.  It will have an acidic pH but not like the nitric acid you start with.  If you dissolve ferric nitrate crystals in water you also get an acidic solution.  This stuff is not really exothermic on dilution so if you dilute it further it doesn't matter if you add it to water or water to it.  This is different from dilution of the nitric acid per se which is very exothermic and where you should always add the acid to the water.

I do not dissolve all the iron in the solution that it will take.  If you do that you'll get some gelatinous sludge.  The sludge might be ok if you want to muddy the surface of your wood with pigment rather than just turning the color of the wood with the action of the heated ferric nitrate on the wood fibers.

Tom

[rich pierce]

If you get to the mud stage you can get back out by adding a little fresh nitric.

[BILL OKLAHOMA CITY]

what concentration nitric acid should I buy?

[keweenaw]

Nitric acid is typically sold as a 65-70% concentrate.  I used 10 ml of the concentrated nitric acid, 60 ml of distilled water and 3.5 g of iron to make mine working solutions.  Others use less dilution but I did a series at different dilutions and couldn't determine any better results with the less diluted nitric acid to start with.  The resulting 70 ml. is enough for about four stocks.  Make sure you don't breathe the fumes off this stuff as the iron dissolves - they are toxic.

Tom

[jwh1947]

Why do the multitudes still insist on fussing with aqua fortis when there are so many good commercial products available that are safer, easier to use, and more forgiving regarding blending?  I don't automatically buy the "traditional" argument, unless it is going on a gun that doesn't have a 20th century touch hole liner and/or is built from scratch.  Then I would say such applications are consistent with the build.  I have used the stuff and have not found it to be the "holy grail" of gunstock treatments.  Wayne

[Jim Kibler]

Why do the multitudes still insist on fussing with aqua fortis when there are so many good commercial products available that are safer, easier to use, and more forgiving regarding blending?  I don't automatically buy the "traditional" argument, unless it is going on a gun that doesn't have a 20th century touch hole liner and/or is built from scratch.  Then I would say such applications are consistent with the build.  I have used the stuff and have not found it to be the "holy grail" of gunstock treatments.  Wayne

Because by and large a dye stained stock doesn't look appropriate and can be spotted from across the room.  There are a few who get fair results from dyes, but they are certainly the exception.  Another problem with dyes are their light fastness.  Finish a piece of wood, block half of it from sunlight and set it out in the sun.  The results can be pretty startling.

[Acer Saccharum]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Wayne, I am shocked. This coming from you? Ha! What is the world coming to?  

(I was hoping to meet you at Dixon's this year, but I missed you somehow.)

My reason for using Aqua Fortis: The AF is completely light-fast, which is very important to me. A lot of folks use aniline dyes and different modern stains, but they do fade in sunlight.

It's not that complex. When diluting: Don't add the water to the acid.  Always add the acid to the water.

Tom