wood stain from leaves

[whitebear]

Not trying to confuse our threads on vinegar and iron rust stains bu I picked up he latest issue of Backwoodsman today at Super Wally.  It has an article on making wood stain from leaves.  Seems that you get fresh dry leaves from one variety of tree and soak them in household ammonia with a 1/4 tsp of alum.  Anyone ever heard of this or tried it?

[Lucky R A]

     It totally amazes me, with all the really excellent stains available at quite reasonable prices, why anyone would want to spend the time making a product of questionable quality.  Many, many things can be used to color wood to one extent or another, the end result, resistance to fading and possible reaction over time with the wood to which they are applied hardly makes the effort worth while.   Assume you put the effort into a $100-$300. stick of wood and a 100-200 hours of time into building a gun why chance the end result on some stain that may fade badly when exposed to sun light, turn green reacting to chemicals in wood etc., etc.   The traditional stains like nitric Acid and iron combination, asphalt, and vinegar have all been tested and proven.  The new solvent NGR stains make staining a gunstock easy as pie.  The NGR  stains can be mixed to yield custom colors, they can be tinted to produce even more colors.  They can be layered one over the other to produce the effects of aging etc.   The stain that results from leaves rich in tannum will be a water based stain that will raise the grain, probably need to be very concentrated to produce a rich vibrant deep color.  Consider carefully the path that you are looking to travel...P.S. Been there and tried a lot of these "secret" stains....

[FL-Flintlock]

Tannin based stains derived from natural tannin solutions and extracts can produce tone richness and colors that are impossible to achieve with synthetic/chemical/solvent stains.  There are literally thousands of combinations and hundreds of methods to produce tannin stains.  Some of the most common are the "tea" stains where tannins are extracted via a water solution, the solution can then be concentrated by distillation or evaporation if so desired.  Tannin stains can also be morphed into a straight alcohol base or a an alcohol base that has been infused with natural oils either by mixing or in the traditional manner by using the alcohol to extract natural organic oils typically from bark or roots.  Common tannin/sap oil blends can be used as a stand-alone interior finish but exterior use requires application of appropriate finishes.  Alcohol base sap oil finishes can also be suitable for exterior applications depending on the type of oil infused into the alcohol base, typically a curing or semi-curing oil is preferred.  Many bark & sap oils are tannin-rich and can be used as a stand-alone to produce the desired effects of color and finish.  The use of certain salts pre, post or in mixture with tannin-rich finishes can have dramatic effects on the resultant color and can be used to create variety of effects that cannot be achieved with single-color common solvent stains even when layered or drawn.  Tannin stains eliminate the spot concentration issues that cannot be avoided when using common pigmented/dye stains.  Water base stains are more difficult to work with until you get the hang of both preparation and application as either or both can make or break the whole process.  Alcohol base stains are somewhat more user-friendly but do require a learning curve.  There's a lot more to this than just sticking some leaves in water, there are some print resources available but most are seriously lacking in the required technical data.  If you're interested in producing and using tannin base stains and finishes, I strongly suggest investing in an pinless moisture/humidity/temperature meter and a combination Ph/salinity/conductivity meter along with a good old hydrometer.

[FL-Flintlock]

Knew I had some pic's, just had to get them uploaded.  These are side by side of manufactured stain and tannin stain.  Take note how the mfg'ed stains load-up in the grain and softer parts of the wood causing the excessively dark area that diminishes the natural look and warmth of the wood.  When properly made and applied, tannin stains eliminate the mottled and ink-bleed look produced by mfg'ed stains and the end hue is almost infinitely variable.  Mark  






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[whitebear]

Lucky,  Thanks for your reply it was informative to say he least.  What amazes me is that when someone new comes up with a different way of doing something there usually is some older guy there to tell him that he is wasting his time since the older guy has already done that with less than stellar results.  There are different ways of doing something for the same reason that there are menus in restaurants, everyone doesn't like or want the same things.

As to slathering a bunch of new stain on a $300.00 rifle stock with a couple hundred hours of work in it, I have sense enough to try things on a scrap to see what will happen and I would hope that others would also.  If not then they deserve what they get.

Again I appreciate you taking time to answer but "Live and Let Live".   Doug

[Lucky R A]

   Doug,
              My response to your question certainly intended only to keep you from making a costly (time and $$) mistake.   $#*!, I was born before there were ball point pens, if someone had not experimented we will still be dipping our nib in an ink well.  If you want to try to come up with a new formula for a gun stock stain ---by all means go for it.   I have tried a lot of stains since I built my first muzzleloader in 1961.   A lot of what was available back then was pretty sad, so we tried most everything.  Since that time I have built well over 200 guns.  The results that I get from things like Laurel Mt. Forge stains and some of the other quality stains is top notch.   You will have to work long and hard and expend some serious $$ to equal the results.  As Fl Flinter pointed out you would need enough expertise and equipment to go commercial in stain production to achieve the results he shows.    Perhaps Mark can direct you to a manufacturer of Tannim stains...the results look interesting.   
        Doug,  I have seen a lot of new builders come into the shop and some of the mistakes I see would scare the bejeebers out of you.   I was only trying to save you some time and aggravation---sorry you took it otherwise. 

Best wishes

Ron

[Acer Saccharum]

Ron, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I have tried vinegar stain, which I have sometimes liked the results very much, and other times I am pulling my hair out trying to get a color I can even start to like. I do, however, like to experiment with old time methods, and am loathe to use a modern stain. But I will use modern steel on the barrel, and lost wax  cast parts for my locks, so, I am not consistent in my preferences for old timey methods.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Hey, Some things look easier than others......at first../.  

I have to admitt I get a kick out of mixing up my own shellac from dewaxed flakes and alcohol.... If I had a place I would ake up soe thick ol BLO varnish using Dan's recipe..........In the meantime Chamber's is the best thing I have found.......Now, I like spar varnish (the real stuff) but it would take a lot of rubbing down..............so aybe for a NE gun eh??

[Dphariss]

Ron, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I have tried vinegar stain, which I have sometimes liked the results very much, and other times I am pulling my hair out trying to get a color I can even start to like. I do, however, like to experiment with old time methods, and am loathe to use a modern stain. But I will use modern steel on the barrel, and lost wax  cast parts for my locks, so, I am not consistent in my preferences for old timey methods.

Its hard to tell a steel barrel from a iron one or how a TG was cast after they are finished.
Many modern stains and finishes look like modern stains and finishes.
I can't see people jumping through all sorts of hoops to make a stain when the original makers would in all likelyhood would have not gone to the trouble either.
I KNOW that walnut hull and butternut hull extract with a  dark oil will match some late 19th century factory guns for repair work. But these stains really do not like to penetrate the wood at all. But if the color they will produce is needed they are simply wonderful. I would not dream of trying them on maple. I don't really like the color.
Mad Monk sent me some of each some time back (way farther back than I like to think of) and it REALLY saved a friends behind once while working at Shiloh when an original buttstock got damaged. The original wood was very pale under the original stain (I assume) and I knew none of the modern stains would match it, so I tried both the hull extracts and when oiled the match was perfect. I normally don't stain walnut at all.
I like nitrate of iron on maple. So I use it. I don't worry about the color being exactly the shade I want either. I take what comes.

Lucky's reponse:
I have been guilty of questioning people making oddball stains, making remarks about plastic finishes etc. Everyone needs to remember that there are many different points of view on many things and some of us have spent a lot of time looking for things that worked and have ended up with some crummy looking stain jobs that we have no wish to see repeated by anyone.
So when someone tells someone else that they may be barking up the wrong tree its not that we are simply trying to make the experimenter  feel bad or impose their will. It may as stated by Lucky that we simply are trying to save someone from a potential self-inflicted wound. Wood is not cheap and getting a stock to the point of staining can involve a lot of labor so being warned or potential problems is a good thing.
I make mistakes all the time that I am sure someone trained by a master under an apprentice program would not. I would have been shown how to do things in training and avoid head banging and hair pulling. That is one of the best things about this site and makers guild organizations etc. is having others to bounce ideas off of  or learn by listening/reading.
Much of this is OPINION/shop practice based on experiences. These things tend to vary from gunmaker to gunmaker. If we were ALL taught by the same master things would STILL vary.
So there will be numerous answers to any question put here. Some folks may be compelled to tell someone that they think the project etc is a waste of time. It may very well be. But a warning or urging caution is not the same as holding a gun to someones head to force them into submission.

Dan

[keweenaw]

Natural product dyes made from woods - logwood, brazil wood, braziletto, etc. - or roots - madder, alkanate - were commonly used in colonial times and the source materials were very, very valuable and all are still commercially available both as woods to extract your own or as extracts.  Most of these were used on clothing but there is documented use on furniture and alkanate was widely used in English gunstock finishing.  Most fade with time and to fix the colors, to the extent they can be fixed, one needs to use a mordant (usually tin chloride or alum, sometimes dichromate) after the stain is applied.  They give a wide variety of different colors depending on the mordant used and what they are applied to.  You can also change the color considerably by application of tannins to the wood prior to dyeing the wood.  The easiest to control source of tannin addition is to simply buy some powdered tannic acid and dilute it to some appropriate concentration.  I've played with these on English walnut but have never been confident enough to use them on a finished stock.  With the source materials mentioned above one can get colors ranging from yellow to orange to red to a wide variety of red browns to browns, grays and black.

I  frequently apply of a dilute wash of tannic acid on maple stocks before the nitrate of iron is applied.  That definitely makes the stripes darker.   Also all of these, including the nitrate of iron most of us use, are dyes not stains.  Dyes bond to the wood at the molecular level, stains have bits of pigmented stuff in them that cling to the surface of the wood without changing the background color - hence the tendency of stained wood to have a slightly muddy surface.

Tom

[FL-Flintlock]

Ron,

I don't know of any commercial manufacture of tannin-base stains, the only thing I have found are a limited number of tannin extracts for cosmetics available only in bulk from Asian suppliers.  As Snyder said, there are certain raw materials available but to the best of my knowledge, no read-to-use products.

As I stated previously, there are literally thousands of variations of tannin stains and I've barely scratched the surface after about 30 years since I was first exposed to making them.  It sounds like the nut-shell tannins Dan speaks of are the most common type of dye extract wiping stain which are the easiest to use but are by no means fool-proof.  The use of tannin stains goes way back into the BC time frame which accounts for why there are so many different types.  If you want to get into the chemical reactions, that's a topic to take up with the Monk because I focus on the visible end results.  Guess work is out unless you're willing to accept the results which is why it's pertinent to have a pinless moisture meter and a PH meter - guessing at an application could take you anywhere from a rich gold color that brings out the natural grain and sheen of the wood to flat black - of course, on the other hand, such is why the tannin stains allow such great flexibility in application especially when you can take them a shade at a time until you get the exact look you want.  When you get into reacting the tannin base before/after application, it again expands the color options.  Tannin stains are not all that difficult to make or work with (heck, I can do it) it's more a matter of just paying attention and taking the time to do it right.  It's quite satisfying and I'd go so far as to say addicting.  It's kinda like going from snapping together a pre-shaped & inletted kit gun to building one from scratch without any plans or copying something that already exists.

Depending on the materials and methods, some colors can lighten or darken with exposure to UV/O2 while others will remain colorfast.  Colorfastness is also determined by the base material too and that applies to common production solvent stains as well.  For example, you can allow a typical commercial solvent stain to fully cure on base wood like Cherry then seal it and it's still going to have some darkening with age.  Same goes for base wood like Ash or Magnolia where it'll lighten with age.