J. For Rifle

[Nate McKenzie]

Here is another nice old rifle that was in my shop for repairs. It is clearly marked on the barrel   J. For   . There doesn't seem to have been anything after the For. I believe it to be Upper Susquehanna style- probably Snyder Co. Pa.  Has anyone ever heard of this maker or have any ideas about this gun?

45 cal.   39.5"  X  .932"  straight sided barrel with straight [no twist] rifling.
LOP 12.5"
Butt- 1.2" X 3.22"
Wrist-  width-1.3"  height- 1.37"
Lock panels- 1.5" apart and parallel.
Forearm width- 1.2" slightly tapered to front.
Forestock at middle thimble- 1.0"
One piece slightly grooved nosecap.



































Thanks for looking. All comments and information or theories welcome.

[mr. no gold]

Thank you for showing this nice rifle, Nate. I don't recall ever seeing what appears to be an original percussion Upper Susq River gun. The name doesn't ring a bell with me, so can't help on that, except to say that barrel names are seldom seen in that school. Usually initials or nothing. Someone needs to get into that area and do some exhaustive research to find all of the makers working there.
It appears that the finial of the patchbox is a reuse and some other parts may be as well.
Can't see enough to tell for sure. The engraved flower detail on the box differs greatly from the engraving on the rest of the box and the side plates do not line up with the finial.
There is a lot of good finish left on the stock and the rifle, although used considerably, is in pretty good condition.
Can't tell but wonder if the barrel has been shortened? If so, a big chunk was taken away and this looks like what Kindig described as lightening the gun somewhat by removing a lot of barrel. The two top pipes are pretty close together, so several inches could have been cut off. Kindig theorized that elderly shooters may have found this a good way to continue to use a gun that they found too heavy in its 'as built' state. Thanks again.
Dick

[Loudy]

Nate,

I agree with your educated hunch about this being a Snyder County gun.  This rifle has many Snyder County features.  Beyond that I don't have much to offer.  I have no clue who this "J. For" fella was or where exactly he may have worked.  The only builder from that area with the same initials that I'm aware of was Jacob Frock (and I don't have much on him).  I can't even come up with "For" as a surname of anyone in that area in the mid 1800's.      

A couple questions.  Do you think the rifle is stocked with a plain-Jane non-figured piece of maple, or is it some type of fruit wood?  Does the trigger simply pivot on a pin run through the stock?  Do you think the patchbox may have been salvaged by this maker from an older gun?  The reason I ask this is because the quality of the engraving on the finial is not consistent with the simple wriggle work on the patchbox lid and sideplates.  The finial is also quite a bit wider than the sideplates.  If the patchbox was salvaged maybe the barrel was salvaged from an older gun also?    

I hope someone comes up with something here for you regarding this maker.  I have always enjoyed a good mystery.  Thanks for sharing this gun.  

Mark Loudenslager      

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

My guess, supporting Mr. No Gold, is that the patchbox, most certainly the side panels , of it were added when the toe was repaired. The side panel arm fit against the box hinge suggests strongly different origins.

[Mike R]

J FOR--a reused Jacob Fordney barrel?

[Fullstock longrifle]

It looks like a probable restock with salvaged parts from a John Ford rifle. 

[California Kid]

Fullstock gets the prize. IMO, a restock. Patchbox definitely doesn't look right as others have said.

[Nate McKenzie]

I had the barrel out and there is no sign of shortening other than thimble spacing. I did the toe repair myself. Patchbox was on it before but all the screws are plated modern replacements put in by someone and slightly on the large side. Wood seems to be maple but could be something else. Trigger is pivoted through the wood.

[California Kid]

Neat looking gun though. The PB release isn't right and the kick open spring looks like it came from TOW.
Probably the PB was a modern addition. That's a shame otherwise an interesting gun. Thanks for posting it.

[mr. no gold]

A few more words here. This is an old rifle with 'refinements' added somewhat later, perhaps. Look at the wood; it is quite old and has checks and dings galore. The toe has been replaced at some point in time and that suggests a later repair to an older gun.
Interesting that the barrel is correct. Is there any chance that it was cut at the front end? The ramrod pipes are usually equally spaced along the channel. I noticed that there is apparently a molding line along the forearm by the RR channel. Nice touch.
Would like to hear from some of the upper river folks who really know these up-river guns.
Dick

[Don Getz]

It somewhat resembles, but doesn't quite fit the Snyder county area.   I think both the "J. FORD" or "J. FORDNEY" used
stamped letters.    I had a J. Fordney and this gun just doesn't quite fit that architecture either, although the two side
rails on the patchbox are kind of proper.   Dunno..............Don

[Dale Campbell]

It is hard to see in the picture, but could that "R" be a "K"?

[scooter]

My own bet w/ the partial signature especially is

Ford, John  (1780-1862).  gun- and silversmith.  1839, corner of Front and Walnut Sts.;  1842, Front and Locust Sts., Harrisburg  [tax; Census; Harrisburg Dirs.].  John was born on 5 January 1780, a son of Peter and Rebecca [Shipe] Ford of York.  In 1801 he moved to Harrisburg.  In 1803 he married Mary Schnevely [1781-1830].  He made a gun that was once in the State Museum in Harris¬burg.  In 1807 the Commonwealth paid Ford $704.12 for making repairs to state militia arms.  He died on 31 January 1862  [Egle, Dauphin and Lebanon Counties, pp. 492-93; 2 Hazard's Annals 59]. Ford John, gunsmith, n. Front, bel Locust st [1845 dir.].

I photographed 2 signed guns w/ essentially the same  patchbox.

[oakridge]

I'm with Dale C. That sure doesn't look like an R.

[Nate McKenzie]

Here are some pictures of  J. Ford  rifles sent to me. I think I see a resemblance, especially the patchbox engraving on the second one.

[Loudy]

Nate,

Below is a photo of a signed rifle made by Sam Loudenslager in Snyder Co. or nearby Juniata Co.  He worked in both areas.  You'll see that this rifle has some of the same features seen on the "J. For" rifle.  The stock profile, side lockplate escution, incised moulding lines, two-piece riveted entry pipe, and through-the-buttplate patchbox release are all similiar to the S.L. rifle pictured here and other Snyder County rifles that I am familiar with.  I suspect that the "J. For" rifle is actually a mid-1800's Snyder County restock of a John Ford gun.  I'm going to go out on a limb future and speculate that the parts that appear to be salvaged from the original gun include all four pieces of the patchbox,  the barrel including the tang, the upper ramrod pipes, and maybe the buttplate.  On the patchbox sideplates you can actually see at least a couple holes that I believe were where the original pins were that held the plates in place.  The restocker went with ugly misplaced wood screws.  I suspect that the narrow profile of the Snyder County buttstock forced the restocker to place the patchbox sideplates in close up against the patchbox lid instead of spreadout exposing a strip of wood between the lid and the sideplate as was done on the original rifle.  The patchbox release spring looks like a recent replacement.  The exposed release spring head in usually more refined looking and the spring is not typically held in place with the woodscrew.  Thanks again for sharing photos of the "J. For" gun.  It's got a story to tell. 

Mark Loudenslager



 

         

[Loudy]

Nate,

Disregard my patchbox release spring "held in place by a woodscrew" comment.  Upon looking at your photos again I see no sign of any kind of screw.  However, I'll stick with my other observation that the head of the spring looks odd relative to typical Snyder County guns.  Usually a slim tear-drop shaped head, not so blob-like.  Often you'll see old guns that are missing this spring head entirely.         

Mark