Author Topic: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?  (Read 20256 times)

Harnic

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2010, 01:59:34 AM »
As a sidebar to this thread, I sold a used muzzle loader to a fellow who was obviously very sloppy in his use of the supplied wood ramrod.  He wore a huge groove on one side of the muzzle over the course of a summer!  Then he had the nerve to come back to my shop & complain that the barrel must be defective because he managed to destroy it so soon.  I just laughed at him.  I had shot that rifle for 3 years extensively before I sold it to him, loading with the stainless rod I still use today & the crown/ bore still looked perfect when he took possession.  In my opinion wood rods are only safe if you push straight down with no flexing & are careful not to allow them to bear on any area of the crown.  As I stated before, I never use mine.  There is no need whatsoever to "pound down a tight load", as once a patched ball is started with the short starter, it travels easily to the powder charge, even if it's a tight fit.  All the swaging is done at the muzzle.  If any "pounding" is required the bore is likely either very dirty & needs cleaning or is pitted.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 08:40:19 PM by Harnic »

Daryl

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2010, 02:56:37 AM »
54 bucks - a fiberglass rod is abrasive by itself. It needs no dirt to help.  If you don't believe it, pick a flat's corner on top of your nicely browned barrel to test.

Fouling is the dirt we speak of.  None of my bores every gets touched by pure lead other then slugging it when new.  Cloth patches are more abrasive than lead anyway, but to wear a barrel out, you'll probably need well over 50,000 shots for a GM or Goodeoin barrel.  The softer barrels probably wear more quickly - I believe Roger has something like 48,000 shots through his bl. and it won the postal chunk shoot this year and placed 2nd for the previous 2 years.

I suggest that jointed rods never be used in bores, unles they are very well made - better than any of the commercial ones that is. There are no comercial jointed rods that I will put down my bores. They kink and rub just about everywhere on the passage through a bore. As well, the joints are a good place for dirt to accumulate, then abrade the bore.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 08:00:08 PM by Daryl »

theDuck

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2010, 03:26:50 AM »
I use a 3/8" brass rod tapped 10-32 on one end and outside threaded on the other end and a 2" hardwood round ball screwed on.

Al Lapp

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2010, 07:46:09 PM »
I find this thread very interesting as I am looking to buy or make a range rod. I have drill rod in 36 in. leignth, but can't seem to find it any longer. Will probably check with the guy's at our next shoot.   Al

Daryl

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2010, 08:02:33 PM »
sorry - I meant fiberglass in the above post - I've ammended it.  As to stainless - I use that coated and uncloated in my .17 centrefires without concern - with bore guides.  For the MLs, I use uncoated stainless and uncoated drill rod - I am cafeful not to bang the muzzle with them while loading or cleaning.

54Bucks

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2010, 10:37:19 PM »
54 bucks - a fiberglass rod is abrasive by itself. It needs no dirt to help.  If you don't believe it, pick a flat's corner on top of your nicely browned barrel to test.

Fouling is the dirt we speak of.  None of my bores every gets touched by pure lead other then slugging it when new.  Cloth patches are more abrasive than lead anyway, but to wear a barrel out, you'll probably need well over 50,000 shots for a GM or Goodeoin barrel.  The softer barrels probably wear more quickly - I believe Roger has something like 48,000 shots through his bl. and it won the postal chunk shoot this year and placed 2nd for the previous 2 years.

I suggest that jointed rods never be used in bores, unles they are very well made - better than any of the commercial ones that is. There are no comercial jointed rods that I will put down my bores. They kink and rub just about everywhere on the passage through a bore. As well, the joints are a good place for dirt to accumulate, then abrade the bore.


 Sorry Daryl I can't accept that. You can't take the edge off a piece of soft wood with my super rod (fibreglass). And if black powder fouling is the "grit"/culprit giving fibreglass or wooden rods a bad name,please explain how using any other type of rod could avoid powder fouling after the first shot ?

westerner

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2010, 11:30:16 PM »
I think there are many different types of fiberglass. It can be reinforced with many different materials. I have one in a Bill Crane MLr. It's painful to use, like playing in nettles.  One of these days I'll replace that rod. Would have already but the pipes are a bit undersize.

After reading this article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiberglass  .  I'd have to say (glass reinforced plastic) Is abrasive.  Glass is silica, silica is hard rock. They make sandpaper out of it.

Makes no difference if the rod doesnt touch the bore when used.

         Joe.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 11:51:52 PM by westerner »

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2010, 03:33:39 AM »
I'll stick to my Brass rods for range work and cleaning, and I'm glad I don't have to see if fiberglass is any good, since they don't make them long enough for my 48" and longer barrels.  Thank goodness MBS has them in stock in the longer lengths.

Bill
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Gary

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2010, 07:48:40 AM »
Solid brass with wood file handle.  The brass was from a door's panic bar hardware.  It's the rod that goes up from the panic-bar handle up to the latch at the top of the door. 

Daryl

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2010, 05:50:47 PM »
54 bucks - a fiberglass rod is abrasive by itself. It needs no dirt to help.  If you don't believe it, pick a flat's corner on top of your nicely browned barrel to test.

Fouling is the dirt we speak of.  None of my bores every gets touched by pure lead other then slugging it when new.  Cloth patches are more abrasive than lead anyway, but to wear a barrel out, you'll probably need well over 50,000 shots for a GM or Goodeoin barrel.  The softer barrels probably wear more quickly - I believe Roger has something like 48,000 shots through his bl. and it won the postal chunk shoot this year and placed 2nd for the previous 2 years.

I suggest that jointed rods never be used in bores, unles they are very well made - better than any of the commercial ones that is. There are no comercial jointed rods that I will put down my bores. They kink and rub just about everywhere on the passage through a bore. As well, the joints are a good place for dirt to accumulate, then abrade the bore.


 Sorry Daryl I can't accept that. You can't take the edge off a piece of soft wood with my super rod (fibreglass). And if black powder fouling is the "grit"/culprit giving fibreglass or wooden rods a bad name,please explain how using any other type of rod could avoid powder fouling after the first shot ?

All I can think of, is your Super rod a whippy plastic rod also caled a noodle rod and not actually fiberglass? Or -  if indeed it's fiberglass - it must be coated.  I cut a groove .015" deep on the corner of a flat with a real non-coated fiberglass rod - in 1975.  Taylor believes it - he was there and saw it.  BTW - do it to your barrel. If it is non-coated, real fiberglass, it will cut a groove if stroked like a file.  If you don't believe it - oh well.  I don't believe your rod is bare fiberglass.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 01:29:25 AM by Daryl »

Offline Kermit

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2010, 06:15:51 PM »
"Fiberglass." An interesting generic term--sort of like "formica" has become. Folks us it to describe almost any hardish polymer. Could be anything from actual GRP (glass reinforced ploywhatsit) to nylon. I'd be willing to bet that if ten folks showed up with "fiberglass" rods, a bunch of them would contain NO glass.

Interesting discussion nonetheless.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline bgf

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2010, 06:26:08 PM »
Daryl,
All the fiberglass ramrods I've seen seem to have a fairly tough plastic coating.  If they are broken or the coating is worn off or damaged , then they could be fairly prickly, but I can't see them doing too much damage as long as they are in good shape, won't even mark wood.  Perhaps older fiberglass ramrods were made differently?  The "synthetic" ones can be pretty irritating to work with -- way too floppy.  Not wanting to argue, just curious, as they offer a good alternative in some cases.

Just saw Kermit's post -- that may be true as well.

Leatherbelly

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2010, 08:25:04 PM »
   Something is ironic here. Many members shun short starters yet condone range rods. Zupwitdat?
   Do ya think our forefathers packed an extra steel rod when hunting or fighting hostiles? nyet!

westerner

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2010, 09:17:29 PM »
The last time I saw an indian (potential hostile) at the range was in Havre Montana, about 2002.  He was  a nice old guy so I didnt shoot him.  He told me how they ran my grandpa out of town right after WW 2.   They have a nice range up there.


                                               Joe.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 09:20:14 PM by westerner »

longrifle54

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2010, 09:31:16 PM »
I use(and a few fellow club members) A 3/8 diameter stainless steel range rod. A customer of mine drills and taps them for me so the rod costs me 5$ total(hey, they like me)   Hunting and doing our woods walk I use my wood ramrod.

Daryl

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2010, 01:28:13 AM »
Note that I mentioned fiberglass - not nylon, and  uncoated.   The fiberglass rods I've seen (not since mid 1980's) were all bare, uncoated - were brown in colour and fron 7/16" in diameter and down to about 5/16" for small calibres.  If the members here thought I was talking about coated rods, I am truely sorry - I thought I was clear about the fiberglass rod being uncoated.  My bad, I guess.

I have a blue fiberglass rod - this is real fiberglass & is a whip antenna for pickups travelling logging roads. Actually, I didn't know the term fiberglass meant anything but fiberglass.  Seems "Fiberglass" has been turned into a generic term?- I don't know, never heard that before but am fully aware that some people, lacking knowledge have used the wrong term in describing something, a product, event, whatever - afterall - all snowmobiles are Skidoo's aren't they?

Any-ways - here is a section of barrel - an old piece of cut rifled 15/16" (or maybe an inch). I haven't a clue what make it is, whether it was made by Rice, Douglas, Bauska, Green Mountain of Getz - probably one of those.  I don't know if it is 12L14, or 1011, 4140 or whatever.  I do know it was a muzzleloading barrel at one time and that fiberglass is not it's friend. Underneath the barrel in the picture is the blue 1/4" fiberglass rod I used for the 'test'.  The flat's corner shows 3 grooves. The one on the left is 20 strokes with the rod, middle is 40 strokes and the one on the right is 80 strokes.  The grooves cut are rather dramatic & this angle shows them best for a very amature phtographer - I took about 20 pics to get this one and gave up.


Offline bgf

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2010, 02:24:28 AM »
Daryl,
Just for the record, I believed you, but thanks for the pictures.  That is pretty vicious cutting power -- need to be very careful with fiberglass!

Harnic

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2010, 05:32:52 AM »
Very graphic proof Daryl!  Way to make your point! ;)

Al Lapp

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2010, 06:53:20 AM »
Personally I won't touch fiberglass, I still remember those old fiberglass arrows. Terrible things splinters and all. I tend to have my seniors moments. but I never forget them. I think I'll go with stainless or drill rod, but an interesting thread anyway.   Al

William Worth

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2010, 02:13:02 PM »
Perhaps a good test for a potential range rod would be to scrub it vigorously on a tender part of your own anatomy, like inside the crook of your elbow, to see if it's troublesome or not. 

 :o :P ::)
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 03:02:47 PM by William Worth »

Daryl

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2010, 09:51:38 PM »
Daryl,
Just for the record, I believed you, but thanks for the pictures.  That is pretty vicious cutting power -- need to be very careful with fiberglass!

Thanks BGF - this graphically shows a potentially ruinous material must be watched for wear of its coating.  The sharp corners of the rifling lands can indeed do damage to a plastic coating - this is evedent on my modern cleaning rods - one make of .17 cal rods I have but stopped using, which are fairly soft steel with coating, have rifling marks in the coating itself as they flexed down the bore when patching out the bore.  It is best, I think, to use a rod that does not flex and 'rub' the bore inside as it's being loaded or cleaned.

 I was quite shocked, actually, when I did the barrel rub test with the very rod I was using for a range rod - back in the 70's.  As noted, I did have to cut off barrel and re-crown every 200 shots to maintain and regain accuracy.

During the 1800's, mention is made many times of the 'battering' of the rifling, or battering of the lands caused by the steel rods in vogue with the military at that time.  Much of this perhaps came from the method of loading, where the soldier rammed home the ball or bullet, then repeatedly (3 times) lifted the rod and threw it down the bore to ensure the projectile was on the powder. The Tige and Delvinge rifles in use in the 30's to 50's required this, but it is stated when these Euro guns were being 'tested' by the American military, that the then-common loading method as I described would ensure the ball or bullet was expanded into the rifling in either of these guns "as well". Note was also made, that if the requisite 3 blows were not hard enough or uniform in nature, that the ball or conical ball would not be properly expanded and that accuracy would suffer to that of the common musket(of the day).

Too - the steel rods of the day had an expansion on one end - a tulip that is mentioned to actually cause the battering or damage, not the sides of the rod at the muzzle.  Most of the battering took place in the lower part of the bore, nearer the breech, not the crown - this is perhaps notable.  Since most/many of us don't load that way, and we use straight rods for range rods, or rods with a brass jag on the end, we're unlikely to damage our bores in like manner - or are we?

How abrasive is fouling, referred to as dirt in the old texts? Another test?

We do know that when we load a patched ball down a bore fouled by the previous shot, the patch collects all of that fouling into it's bearing surface and scrubs that down the bore as the ball is seated, then when fired, it is scrubbed all the way out the bore again - perhaps fouling is not as abrasive as we've been led to believe. Perhaps it's only modern powder fouling that is abrasive, and that abrasiveness has been transferred over to black powder literature mainly because it 'sounds' logical?  More food for thought.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:13:24 AM by Daryl »

Daryl

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2010, 12:10:44 AM »
Test 2 - mind you, nothing scientific about these tests, however they were enlightening to me and I trust the results enough that I will not use stainless nor drill rod without a muzzle protector from now on.

Note that in each test, by 80 foreward strokes. I did not count the back stroke that was made each and every time.  So - the actual stroke in the materials, was 40, 80 and 160.

This time, I used, left to right, brass, nylon, drill rod, stainless rod and wooden (hickory) wiping stick. The last three are of course, the fiberglass rod test.  In this test, test 2, I made 80 full strokes (each way) with each material, identical to the final test with fiberglass @ 80 strokes - all materials were round and 3/8" or smaller in diameter except for the nylon rod, which was 1/2" diameter. That might have skewed the results, but I doubt it.  The 'feel' of each material was telling and could almost predict the results. The fiberglass rod felt like a very find file and showed this by it's damage to the corner. The brss rod was not as long as the others, so the stroke was shortened by about 15% (est). There was enough difference in damage between the brass and the stainless steel though, that the brass wins as being less abrasive regardless of it's slightly shorter strokes.

The marks ont he barrel, in order of least damage:- wood, nylon, brass, drill rod, stainless, then the three grooves cut by the bare fiberglass rod.   Note that the stainless at 80 strokes is almost equivalent to the fiberglass at 20.  Seems to me, stainless steel (don't know what grade) was deemed to cause the most damage in the test done in Muzzle Blasts magazine- 1 or 2 years ago.  The stainless I used was very hard - aircraft grade, whatever that is. A softer 416 stainless might not do as much damage, or maybe even more - I don't know.  I do not know remember which gave the least damage in their test, but I do think my test is representative to the effects of each material.  An electric powdered hacksaw would work well, I think, in a more controlled test, as there would be no rocking of the rod as even a stroke with the arm gives.

Note - I can not see (5X hoop) nor feel any damage from the wooden rod, even though the bluing is removed, ie: worn away by the friction of 80 strokes.  All the other materials left divits I can not only see with the naked eye, but also feel with a fingernail, including the nylon rod, second-best in the test. That may be why there is a small divot in the muzzle of my .69 as that is it's cleaning rod and has been for the last 15 years.  The first 10 years, I used a hickory rod. Guess I shouldn't have switched.



The muzzle of the .69 - look at 11 o'clock in the picture, is a small groove running up against the land. Holding the barrel exactly the same each time it's cleaned, will make the rod flex pretty much the same each time.  Over time, this can cause a groove to be cut. I'm sure this is why that groove is there.  Now, be assured it has not hurt the accuracy of this rifle - last year it shot a 6 shot group off the bags at 200 yards - 1 1/4" wide by 3 1/2" high. bore .690", ball .684", patch .030" (by calipers) powder charge 140gr. 2F GOEX shot 'dirty' no wiping while shooting - ever.
I am certain a smaller bore would not be as forgiving of minor muzzle damage, just as with modern guns. The smaller the bore, the more perfect everything has to be.
 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:27:33 AM by Daryl »

Offline bgf

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Re: What is Your Favorite 'Range Rod'?
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2010, 12:45:13 AM »
Daryl, I barely managed to check my fiberglass ramrod for wear (need a new one due to wear above the jag, and I thought I was careful); in the same time you tested them all!  I think you ought to start a new thread with these results, as they are just the type of empirical data that these arguments sometimes lack.  Wood is starting to look like a great ramrod material -- and its HC, too :).