Large shot in 20 gauge

[frogwalking]

What is the largest shot size that can be used in a 20 gauge?  Other than a .60 that is.  I was thinking of a size that would fit the way 00 fits in a 12, that is 4 to a layer. I can't think of a way to do this mathmatically.  Surely one of you have already figgured this out.  Why would one want to do this?  Why not.   

[2ndCharter]

According to shot size charts, #1 Buck would work, whatever that is. Common sized and availability, T shot will do it with a bit of extra space. Although if the stars are aligned just right, mathematically speaking, T shot would probably give you 7 to a layer.

American Size English Size European Size Australian Size Pellet Diameter Inches Pellet Diameter mm Pellet Weight (grains) Lead Pellets Per Oz. Steel Pellets Per Oz. 11 12 12 .062" 1.57 .35 1250 11 11 .066" 1.68 .42 1040 10 10 10 10 .07" 1.78 .52 848 9 1/2 .075" 1.91 .63 688 9 9 9 9 .08" 2.03 .75 568 8 1/2 8 8 .085" 2.21 .97 472 8 7 8 7.5 .09" 2.31 1.29 399 7 1/2 6 1/2 7 .095" 2.41 1.46 338 7 6 7 6 .10" 2.59 1.62 291 423 6 5 6 5 .11" 2.79 1.99 218 317 5 4 5 4 .12" 3.05 2.57 168 243 4 3 4 3 .13" 3.25 3.12 132 192 3 2 3 2 .14" 3.43 3.65 106 154 2 B 2 .15" 3.81 4.38 86 125 1 BB 1 BB .16" 4.09 5.47 71 103 BB A .177" 4.50 6.25 55 72 BBB AA AA .19" 4.83 7.29 42 61 T AAA AAA .20" 5.16 36 53 F .22" 5.59 27 39 #4 Buck .24" 6.10 21 30 #3 Buck SSSG SSG .25" 6.83 19 28 #1 Buck SSG .30" 7.62 11 0 SG 00/SG .32" 8.38 9 00 .34" 8.64 8 000 LG .36" 9.14 6

[2ndCharter]

Midway carries #1 Buck in lead.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=835113

[Mike R]

depending on the actual bore size [20 gauges vary], I would be surprised if 4 .30 balls [#1 buck] would fit sidebyside in the bore.  I was thinking more like a #4 buck....draw it out and try to pack 4 circles of .30 within a .62 circle.

[Daryl]

#4 was the paper 20 bore 'large shot' size. I recall that from my youth.  4 fit in a circle inside the hull.  00 in a 12 bore, is 3 to a layer in plastic hulls. A 10 bore uses 000 for 3 to a layer. Different manufactuerers do not adhere to this charge exactly. Hornady 000 is .35".  Reminton 00 is .32", same as Imperial SSG at .32".

[Levy]

I remember that #2 buck and #3 buck are the usual large sizes used in a 20 ga. shotgun shell.  The #2 is .27 cal. and the #3 is .25 cal.

James Levy

[Collector]

If this is for a buck shot load or a buck and ball hunting load, for a deer sized animal, I'd not use anything smaller than a .300 RB, regardless how they 'nested' in your 20 ga.   Are you looking for a deer load or a heavy goose load?    Your inquiry begs the question.

[northmn]

The standard 20 ga buckshot load was #4 which nested the best within a case.  A #3 might work in a ML depending on bore, but #4 was used due to the ability to stack it. 

DP

[Collector]

There's really not much of a debate, if any, on how the various sizes of buckshot will nest, but rather on the game that is being shot.  I've known plenty of goose hunters that used small buckshot #3-#4 and sometimes larger, for goose.   Regardless of an intent to shoot at closer than average ranges, I'd still not use anything smaller than a cluster of .300 or say 2 ea. .300 and a patched .600 buck and ball load for deer.  That's just me.  Thought about a 20 ga. once, but went with a 16 ga.     

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

There's really not much of a debate, if any, on how the various sizes of buckshot will nest, but rather on the game that is being shot.  I've known plenty of goose hunters that used small buckshot #3-#4 and sometimes larger, for goose.   Regardless of an intent to shoot at closer than average ranges, I'd still not use anything smaller than a cluster of .300 or say 2 ea. .300 and a patched .600 buck and ball load for deer.  That's just me.  Thought about a 20 ga. once, but went with a 16 ga.    

What would be the benefit of adding the .300 balls. The .600 ball seems to kill the deer pretty dead.............??

[frogwalking]

I did just finish a 20 gauge fowler and in fact, shot it with both ball and shot a few days ago.  I got a reasonably dense pattern at 20 yards but it started thinning out at 25.  Of  course, lots more testing will happen.  Oh.  I seemed to get a denser pattern with one thick circle fly card wad over powder than I did with two. 

The buckshot was for the 20 gauge flint pistol still in a pile on the bench.  I heard somewhere that boarding parties on ships used to use big shot rather than ball in their sea service guns.  Seems pretty effective to me.   What think you?

[Collector]

Dr. Boone,  

Thanks for your tacit support.  This whole thread has now come full circle.  If the 'nesting' question has been answered, then the only possible question left, is to what purpose would such a load be used?    The original question posed to the forum, afterall, was phrased as "Why would one want to do this?"  "Why not (?) "

If it's to satisfy a curiosity or to only put little holes in sheets of paper, then there's little more to be discovered.  By-and-large though, most anyone who uses or has to use 'buckshot' is NUG (normally, usually, generally) going to hunt with it and hence my question.  

And yes, adding buckshot to a .600 RB would be strictly optional on the users part.  Not an unheard of type of load, especially amongst the military who used it to good effect, but again, strictly optional.

So: 1.) Why would one (you, in response) want to do it?  And, in the alternative
      2.)  Why (would you, in response) not (do it) ?

I'll restate:  If the buckshot must be perfectly nested, then I'd use such a load on geese, but I'd deem the size of the buckshot, in that load, as too small for hunting deer, with a 20 ga. BP muzzleloader.  

[northmn]

Nesting in a load is considered important for pressure issues in a modern shell and permits the best load for bore in the smallest space.  As to practical application, buckshot is not even legal for deer in Minnesota and yes, a 20 bore is too small for practical use with buckshot on about anything I can think of.  The designations for the smaller buckshot came about, historically, when shot used to be sold as duckshot, gooseshot and swanshot also.  Shot sizes were generally quite a bit larger as duck shot was about BB size.  #4 bucks shot used to be swanshot, but the designation got changed as the Feds frowned upon it when swans became protected.   Hence we now have small "buckshot" sizes.  At very close range the smaller buckshot is very nasty, but this is very close as under 10-15 yards.
A 20 bore really has almost no or very little practical application with buckshot, except for recreational shooting at targets.  Some have claimed that sea service pistols were also loaded with fine shot and that they would aim for the face to blind the opponent.  Stopping a determined opponent carrying a sword or spear has been a challenge throughout history and a pistol is a sorry choice for the job.  A load of buckshot may have permitted them to hit the antagonist up close.  A few years ago a few people I knew bought those "pirate" pistols that were sold very cheap as they thought they could swat ruffed grouse with them out of the car.  They performed pretty poorly for the task, even up close, as did the TC 410 pistols with the 10 inch barrels.  While more than a couple of folks have nailed turkeys with some pretty interesting loads for a 20 bore which are commonly used in larger bores.  Some also have very full jug chokes.  My 20 bore gets used on ruffed grouse with shot and if for deer, round ball.  For larger birds like ducks and pheasants I use my 12 bore fowler. 

DP

[frogwalking]

T hanks for the information.  Just a note:  Excepting two crows that were so bold as to eat pears from my wife's trees, I have not shot an animal in 20  years.  I have no plans at the moment to shoot any more  unless the crows return next year.  (They seem to have remembered the pear trees are dangerous and did not bother us this year.)   While I actually have a very nice S&W aluminum framed commander sized .45 in the night stand, I can't help but wonder how a load of large shot would do across the room from the 20 gauge pistol.  It might be impressive.  If the balls do not nest correctly, I am concerned during discharge, they may try to pass oneanother in the barrel with unfortunate results. 

[Daryl]

The only unfortunate results would be on the recipient's receiving area.  They will not harm the bore or barrel and will not pass one another - they will go out in the same order they are loaded, bunched up a bit, but in the same order.  3 .45" or 3 .50 cal. balls would also make a good across the room load - better stoppers than the smaller shot. The small shot at low velocity might not penetrate heavy clothing with enough velocity to do damage beneath it.

Set up a target at 10 feet - silhouette targets are the most fun.  Shoot buck, buck and ball (1 bore sized ball and 3 buck shot) or several larger balls like the suggested .45s or .50's and have fun.  Use over powder wads and overshot wads just as in a shotgun. Experiment.

[northmn]

For personal defense it is best to forget the nostalgia and get a modern gun.  I know that Stoeger makes a couple of doubles reasonable priced for that purpose as do many others.  Black powder is best used for those of us that feel that we do not have to shoot every deer we see, or just plain enjoy the experimentation and fun of shooting a historical weapon. 

DP

[bob in the woods]

I , being up here in Canada,am restricted as to what I can easily use re personal protection etc. It's a subject best left to talking over a camp fire . That being said, I have more than one flintlock that I would trust my life to.