Learning experiences

[jwh1947]

Collecting Kentucky rifles is a maze, a labyrinth of twists and turns, where all is not what it appears to be, and unpleasant surprises accompany the pleasant ones.  This is old hat.  I've mentioned it before, and many of us have kicked the subject around.  Some of you have asked for specifics, so that is the present concern.

Good experience, circa 1990. Go to buy two old military rifles at the old mill house on Earley's Mill Road, behind Hershey.  They were not militaries.  One was a Drepperd with incised work and the other was a John Baum, carved.  Bonus: another acquaintance, an ambassador of good will known to all in the fraternity as a fast operator tried to lowball the old lady and I walked away looking like a nice guy with a big smile on my face.  She got twice as much from me, and we were both extremely happy.  Keep it up, guys; you make a bloke like me look like a saint.  

Good experience, circa 1982.  On the way home from the Allentown Gun Show at the Ag. Hall it approached 4:00pm and I sought a cool beer.  I stopped in Jonestown at the Buck Hotel...you know..."Don't pass the buck"...well I didn't that day.  The old bartender was named Shirk Fulmer, a WWII vet.  I, as usual, am always hustling.  I inquired as to whether he had any war booty.  He did and brought it, as he said he would, the next Saturday. A whole wooden box full...tinnies, good wound badges, Heer Daggers, a RAD Hewer, and a Rohm dagger worth many pesos.  And, he had a piece of junk, a broken gun, in the back.  Come see.  There's a John Derr with a flame patchbox finial that was 100% attic and crisp.  Yes, it had a broken trigger guard which I brazed and you can't tell.   Shirk wanted rent and beer money.  I paid his rent and kept him soaked for over a year.  

Good experience, circa 2000.  Stop by a one-house garage sale in Cumberland County on my way to Don Vaughn's house.  Find an old buck and ball for $15.00.  Get it home, lighten the rust, and find the name A. Pritz on it.  He worked down around Adams Co., I believe.  Then Don says one day later that he has a buyer. I made a fast $435 and Don made $200 viggorish for the deal.  And home in time for lunch.

Bad experience, circa 1998.  I buy a G. Gumpf, one of the ones pictured in many books.  I get it at a club-run gun show and am proud as all heck.  Get her home and say to myself..."Why is this firearm substantially heavier than the norm?"  Upon examination in sunlight I find that the blasted thing had a resleeved barrel.  Not so proud anymore; I like pristine.  I dumped it to a local auctioneer and he sold it back to somebody in the club.  No loss but no gain and a waste of time.

Bad experience, same club, my virgin year as a member, and I use that term precisely, because after the show I was no virgin.  Bought a rifle only to take it apart to find that it is a restock...a good job, but, nonetheless, a useless gun to me.  My rep is not worth besmirching to pass off a piece of garbage like this.  I am admittedly an excitable boy and I had two choices. Hire Tyrone to wrap a vacuum cord around his neck until he coughs up a full refund, which he said he "couldn't do because he spent the money." Or, Plan B, call my colleague the auctioneer and have him peddle it.  I don't like violence, not for any ethical reason, but because it costs me money.  Tyrone needs food and his appetite is big and his tastes are quite refined for a brute.  That's my money going out, plus his travel expenses.  I chose plan B.  Broke even minus 15% to Johnny for his pains.

Bad experience, another club, 200 circa.  Buy a .45 auto, WWII Rem Rand, a screamer.  Only hesitation I had was that it was about $150 too cheap, but, hey, a bargain on those things is unheard of these days.  I fetched it.  All kosher.  From his books and FFL to my bound record book.   Six months later, John Law at the door, Adams Co. Regional Police.  It was stolen.  I surrendered it.  This time the guy blew me off and I called Tyrone.  End of story.

Now let's review.  One blatant trend is apparent.  I don't make money at gun shows.  I lose money at gun shows.  Moreover, the markup has already been applied at shows, at usury levels, and turning a buck is tiresome and hard work.  Conversely, all my real home runs were done off the premises of shows.  That's where the action is.  

The only thing edifying for me at shows is the commraderie from the few who will still speak to me, and an occasional learning experience, but even many of these are tainted nowadays.  So there, that's just one guy's experiences.

[mbriggs]

That was a fun story.  

I have had a number of unusal things happen to me a a local gun show. A couple of them from right out of the "Twilight Zone".

The City of Greensboro, N.C. has a large modern gun show twice a year.  I purchased two tables at each show back in the 80's and found several nice Confederate Rifles and North Carolina Longrifles at good prices by being the only vendor at the show with antique arms.

I quit purchasing tables around 1990.  In 2000 I came to realize that every Longrifle I had purchased in the preceeding ten years had been a retail plus because every one of them had been purchased from another collector or dealer who knew what they had.

In 2000, I decided to start renting tables again and set up a educational display of local Longrifles.  Every person that stopped at my table and seemed interested I asked if they had any of these.  Over 30 people that weekend told me yes.  I then asked could I come to their home and photograph their guns, most said yes.  

The first house I went to had two very poor Jamestown Rifles with broken stocks.  He then pulled out a very rare Mendenhall, Jones & Gardner Confederate Rifle that was made within a mile of his house. He said he had the rifle appraised and told me how much he had been told it was worth.  I purchased it for $1,000 more than what it was appraised for.

The second show I met a dozen more people who told me they owned antique guns.  At one of their homes I found and purchased an even rarer Clapp, Gates & Co. Confederate Rifle at a home that was again less than a mile from the Factory site.  (Both M.J.&G. and Clapp & Gates were located here in Guilford County where I live.  All total there were 7 Confederate Gun Factories located within 20 miles of Greensboro during the late unpleasantness.)

In 2003, I am setting at my tables on Sunday Afternoon when a gentleman in a coat and tie approaches.  He introduces himself and tells me his name is Bill Albright.  He ask me have I ever heard to the 19th Century Alamance County Gunsmith Elias Albright? I tell him yes. He tells me that Elias is his Great-grandfather. He then ask have I ever seen one of his rifles and I tell him I have seen several of them.  He ask have I ever seen one for sale and I tell him in the 25 years that I have been collecting...No.
He then gives me his business card and tells me if I ever find one for sale to please let him know.

In less than 30 minutes after he walks away another gentleman in a coat and tie comes up and tells me his name is Lonnie Albright.  We then proceed to have the identical conversation I had just had with his cousin 30 minutes earlier.  He gives me his card and leaves.

One hour later this 18 year old kid walks up carrying a dirty old Longrifle that is missing the lock.  He hands it to me and I look at the barrel.  On it is the name Elias Albright. (I am looking around for Rod Stirling about this time.)  The kid tells me the rifle belonged to his grandfather who had passed away.  He told me he wanted to sell it and I made him an offer.  He told me he had to ask his mother first but took my card and left.  Three weeks later he called and asked if I still wanted to purchase the rifle for the price I had offered and I told him yes.  After I purchased the rifle I found a lock that fit it well, then called Bill Albright and he came over and purchased the rifle.

One month later I go to a Longrifle Show in Salisbury.  At the first vendor table I stop at I pick up a Longrifle that has the name Elias Albright & son on the barrel.  I purchased it and then called Lonnie Albright and he came over and purchased it from me. It has been seven years since and I have never seen another Elias Albright rifle for sale.

In 2005, I am at the Greensboro gun show when a gentleman comes up and tells me his Great-Grandfather was Chordy Whitehart who made Jamestown School Longrifles in Caswell County, N.C.  He ask have I ever seen in signed Whitehart Longrifles and I tell him I have seen two, but none for sale in 26 years.  He tells me he has been looking for over ten years for one to purchase.  He gives me his card and leaves.

Over the next year I found and purchased not one, but three signed Chordy Whitehart Longrifles and his Grand-son came and purchased each one from me.  I have not seen any the last four years and might not ever find another.

In 2007, I am sitting at my tables when two KRA friends (John Braxton & Arron Capel) walked up from different directions.  We talked for 30 minutes.  I told them that one thing I would like to find and add to my collection was a Jamestown Boys rifle.  I had owned a couple back in the early 80's and but neither was a great example so I had sold them.  I had not seen one in over 20 years.  Less then an hour later a man walks up holding the nicest Jamestown Boys rifle I have ever seen (there are photographs of this rifle in the library under Southern Long Arms - Anderson Lamb). I purchased it and it is still in my collection.

I wonder what will happen next?

Michael    
              
    

[jwh1947]

Sir, I speculate what will happen next.  Some organizations, comprised mostly of old people with old guns, mostly restored, will likely wither away within 20 years.  As the grey hair turns to dust, and fewer youngsters find any interest at all, those few good grand master guns will either end up in closet collections or in museums.  It is actually that simple.  The peak on prices has been met; the apex attained.  The only exception is the top 5% of specimens, and you likely don't own one.

A notable exception is the present CLA.  It is robust, vibrant, and full of youth and energy.  Creativity abounds and people wear smiles.  I see this as the base of the future, and other clubs can either accept it and cooperate or die.  

The Internet and the really large auction houses already control the bulk of the big market.  The paradigm has shifted.  Good stuff is sold by phone to specialists with money.  Shows are for leftovers, rejects, and/or the salty bizarre, the latter mostly for the dealer to show off for a weekend and look big.   And then there are those suckers who have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into guns that they were told will be worth millions but for which their widows maybe will get 50% of their base investment.  These guys need a venue to show off their pieces, which are their defining reason for being in this world.  So as long as the old guys are kicking, they'll need an annual get-together to trade the same old stuff around, but after that, the fat lady has sung for collectors' organizations.  

[nord]

JWH -

Which is exactly the point we've been trying to make to certain folks in certain organizations for the last half decade! Exclusivity and bragging rights aside, it's the younger generation who will decide whether our antique rifles will continue to be of value.

My personal opinion on the future of our rifles is a bit more optimistic than yours. American folk art will continue to be valued I believe. This especially as our dollar plummets and those with dollars look for a somewhat safer place to put them. And one must remember that there will be folks with money and that the finer things attract such as they. Art being one of them.

I'm always amazed when I speak with many a museum curator the difference between a reference to our antique rifles in terms firearms or historical artworks. The latter seems to trump that nasty "firearm" detail in most cases.

You'll notice I mention the use of the term folk art. Whether we like it or not the use firearm, rifle, etc. in today's world tends to turn people away. In certain circles I no longer mention these words. Rather, I focus on art and history. I find that the reception or perception totally changes.

I'm now more inclined to believe that one should look for quality art rather than a quality firearm. The artwork found in our rifles from the buttplate forward to the lock is more likely where the value will lie in the future. Fully restored pieces will still have their place but I suspect most value will be placed on the overall artwork of a piece rather than the completeness of same.

[jwh1947]

Truer words that your first paragraph were never spoken.  And the young have a whole new paradigm.