RCA#133=Ivey#29

[Mike R]

I have been reading through Mr. Ivey's fine book on North Carolina rifles and noted that his #29 [he calls it the RMC rifle] looked awfully familiar--I finally located it as Shumway's #133 [v.2].  To me this rifle screams early Lancaster, but as Shumway noted, the cheek side carving is unique--his criteria for suggesting a southern origin, apparently.  Now I see Ivey has called it a North Carolina rifle and even associated it with one of his schools.  Does anyone have any thoughts about this rifle?  [The "RMC" must be read upside down to see R(?)MC(?)...right side up it looks more like I or J W something--the something is not a clear letter in the photos in either book]

[G-Man]

I would be interested in reading Mr. Ivey's interpretation. 

I would love to see someone reproducing a Ketland lock like that.  There is sort of a void for good locks for southern rifles of the 1780-1800 period. Jack Brooks has a great set of castings for a 1790 style Ketland lock, but no one is making something like this ready to use. 

On the rifle I am working on, I am attempting to modify a Dale Johnson Siler to something close to this style of lock.  Mike Miller has done a few of these and they look pretty good.  Not exact, but they work.

Guy

[mbriggs]

Guys,
Bill Ivey is a very close friend of mine so you have to take my comments in that context.

Bill and I have been collecting and studying North Carolina Longrifles for over 30 years.  One topic of frequent conversation between us is where are the early North Carolina Longrifles made between 1760 and 1790?  We have so few examples that we can study.

What we have come to realize over time is that the early North Carolina Longrifles will often look like Longrifles made in Pennsylvania, Maryland or the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. When a gunsmith moved down the great wagon road to settle in Piedmont North Carolina he did not automatically change his style when he crossed the State Line. Therefore the earliest North Carolina Longrifles are going to look like Pennsylvania or Virginia rifles and unless the rifle is both signed by the maker and dated some where on the rifle, then it would be impossible to tell with certainty where this rifle was made.  It is only when a Longrifle maker had lived in this area for a time and come to work and trade with other makers in his area did the new makers rifles start showing the regional architectural features that Bill so wonderfully demonstrates in his book on the nine North Carolina Longrifle Schools.

Bill is saying is that he thinks this Longrifle (and others in the book) might be from North Carolina. He is simply stating an educated opinion, not a fact.

As to the Makers initials being upside down on the Patchbox lid, there are several Longrifle Schools in North Carolina where the makers frequently signed their name on the lid.  This is especially true in the Rowan School and Mecklenburg School.  Quite often those makers put their names or initials on the box lid upside down so that the person who was holding the rifle could read it.

I hope that helps.

Michael Briggs  
  

[G-Man]

Didn't the Kennedy family come from Pennsylvania to North Carolina during the Revolution, and if I recall correctly, were already in the gunmaking business when they migrated?

Guy

[mbriggs]

Guy,
You are correct, the Kennedy Family was from Pennsylvania.  It does not stop with just them.  There were several Moravian gunsmiths that moved to the Wachovia tract from Pennsylvania and a couple even went back to Pennsylvania after a couple of years.  To know for certain where a early Longrifle was made, it would need to be both signed a dated so you see where that gunsmith worked that year. Lacking that, it is all an educated guess.

The Piedmont area of North Carolina was largely empty before 1750.  The early churches in this area began in 1751.  By 1780 this area was nearly full.  The vast majority of people who moved here were from Pennsylvania and Delaware or the Shenandoah Valley, not people from Eastern North Carolina moving west.

An item I think Bill Ivey does a wonderful job of in his book is showing early furniture from this area and how it too was strongly influenced by the Pennsylvania Decorative Arts.

Michael Briggs    

[Jim Kibler]

Bill is saying is that he thinks this Longrifle (and others in the book) might be from North Carolina. He is simply stating an educated opinion, not a fact.


Michael Briggs  
  

What evidence is making him think this longrifle is from North Carolina?  I don't have the book.  Just curious what his rational is.  Surely he has presented it?


Jim

[Mike R]

Bill is saying is that he thinks this Longrifle (and others in the book) might be from North Carolina. He is simply stating an educated opinion, not a fact.


Michael Briggs  
  

What evidence is making him think this longrifle is from North Carolina?  I don't have the book.  Just curious what his rational is.  Surely he has presented it?


Jim

His rationale in the book seems weak to me, but this is in no way a criticism of his very fine book.  He has done a great job of displaying alot of good rifles.  The rifle in question does not look like any other in the book.  I have wondered if it was originally brought down south from Penna, and early in its life had a stock replacement where the southern restocker used all the PA parts and architecture, but his butt carving did not measure up to early PA standards.

[Dphariss]

This speaks to the idea that a good gun maker can make any style, then or now.
A friend was speaking to this last week.
Say a man in SC has a friend or brother with a rifle that he really likes. Fits him well and he can shoot it very well.
The rifle is from PA, a Dickert maybe.
He visits a local maker and says "I want a rifle just like this I have cash in hand".
Is the gunmaker going to tell him "No take your money someplace else"?
I think not.
Might he change the carving and such, maybe, depends on the customer.
We need to get away from the idea that all these guys only built one style of rifle.
Look at the Antes rifles/guns in the Moravian Gunmakers of the Revolution book.

Dan

[Mike R]

I had another thought [dangerous]: Mr Ivey notes that there are no examples of early Moravian NC guns [other than the disputed Gusler rifle]and that former Christian Springs makers worked there [NC-"Salem school"]--could this rifle be the missing link--it has Christian Springs characteristics?