ramrod drilling and oct/round inletting

[bob hertrich]

I am building a pistol with a Mlbs 8" .50 cal octagon to round barrel It is my first time working with an oct to round. It is .75 dia at the muzzle and .94 at the breech. My question is in such a short barrel should the ramrod be slanted to follow the barrel or should it be drilled straight with the center line of the barrel. I am afraid if it follows the center line it will be to thick at the muzzle end. Any tips on inletting this this thing?

[Jim Kibler]

Bob,

Yes, slant to follow the barrel profile.  It is funny you should ask this now...  I'm building a mid eighteenth century British fowling piece at the moment and found something interesting about the ramrod groove and hole.  A characteristic of British fowling pieces of this period are barrels that have a large breech, often in the neighborhood of 1 3/8", but a narrow barrel waist, often just a little over 3/4".  As you can imagine some care needs to be taken to position the ramrod groove and hole to obtain a slender forestock.  I have a couple of original examples I've been studying and found something interesting.  The ramrod groove follows the profile of the barrel.  The web of wood between the barrel and ramrod groove is a consitent thickness along the forestock.  This allows a slender forestock, but positions the ramrod hole below the barrel channel at the breech.  One thing I've found by having original guns to carefully study is that assumptions we take for granted, may not be true.  It becomes obvious that a modern post industrial revolution mindset in terms of layout, design and construction often doesn't apply. 

-Jim

[patchbox]

 Jim:
       Is this the manner in which you and Ian will inlet and drill the stocks for the fowler we will be building in our next class?
                                                                                                                                Chuck P.

[Jim Kibler]

Jim:
       Is this the manner in which you and Ian will inlet and drill the stocks for the fowler we will be building in our next class?
                                                                                                                                Chuck P.

Most likely Chuck.

[Long John]

Bob,

I have 3 original French pistols in front of me, all made between 1725 and 1775 in my estimation.  One has the ramrod parallel with the axis of the barrel.  One has the ramrod parallel with the bottom surface of the barrel.  The third is in between the two.

Let the "force" be with you.

Best Regards,

JMC

[frogwalking]

If I understand this correctly, if the ramrod groove/hole is parallel with the bottom surface of a swamped barrel, the installed ramrod, and thus the hole, must be curved.  How does one drill a curved hole?  (I often do this accidentally, but never tried to do it on purpose.) 

[keweenaw]

Another thing to consider on pistol barrels is that original English pistols not only have a consistent web between the bottom of the barrel channel and the ramrod hole/groove but they frequently also slant sideways a bit such that the rear of the hole is off center away from the lock side.  This allows more room for the mainspring.

Tom

[bob hertrich]

Thanks guys, I wil try the ramrod slanted with the barrel method. Hopefully that is the way it comes out.
       
                                                            Bob H

[Jim Kibler]

If I understand this correctly, if the ramrod groove/hole is parallel with the bottom surface of a swamped barrel, the installed ramrod, and thus the hole, must be curved.  How does one drill a curved hole?  (I often do this accidentally, but never tried to do it on purpose.) 

Well, it doesn't necesarily have to be curved, but it doesn need to be pointing in the right direction.  From the entry point to the breech, a straight line pretty closely approximates the barrel shape.  I'm going to be drilling a hole set up like I have described soon.  Should be interesting!

[Michael]

Bob,

Drill the ramrod hole FIRST, then inlet the barrel.

[Don Getz]

Jim......several guys beat me to it, but, I was also wondering how you would drill that hole going "up-hill".   If you had enought wood removed from the forend you could bend it down to get the proper entry angle for the drill ?       Don

[Jim Kibler]

Jim......several guys beat me to it, but, I was also wondering how you would drill that hole going "up-hill".   If you had enought wood removed from the forend you could bend it down to get the proper entry angle for the drill ?       Don

I drilled the ramrod hole yesterday.  What I did was along the lines of what Don has suggested.  I made a form from wood that I clamped the top of the stock to.  This form was cut in such a way that it bowed the stock in a curve to allow the hole to be drilled straight. and come out where it should.  worked pretty well.  Came out reasonably close to where I was aiming.

[Don Getz]

Jim........this wasn't my idea, I got it from Fred Miller and is the way he would move that hole around when he drilled them............Don

[whitebear]

Ok, I am building a single barrel fowler, tapered round barrel, do I understand that the ramrod grove should follow the profile of the barrel?

[J. Talbert]

Jim,

I'm thinking that you're dealing with some very fine adjustments, to flex the forend the small amount it seems would be required to deflect the angle of the drill.  The thought of it makes me nervous.
I'm also wondering about the nature of your form.  How substantial it would have to be so that it doesn't bend itself.
Any chance of a picture?

Jeff

[Jim Kibler]

It's really pretty simple.  The form just needs to have the shape of the barrel profile less any flair at the muzzle.  That is ignored.  The stock is thin enough that it flexes easily.  I made the form out of two 2 X 6 boards glued and screwed together side by side.  Just cut the proper profile on one edge.  If  the top edge of the stock is cut parallel with the bore centerline and the form has the barrel profile for a shape, the bottom of the barrel chanel will be straight when bent over the form.  The groove will also be straight since it was previously cut parallel to the barrel bottom.  With these conditions (bottom of barrel inlet straight and parrallel to ramrod groove) drilling the hole is straight forward. 

[Jim Kibler]

Whitebear,

I'm sure not all fowlers are treated in this method, but some are.  The very nature of a barrel with a large breech and a small forward narrow section requires some special care or the forestock could end up pretty tall.  As mentioned previously I'm dealing with a barrel with a breach of 1.375" and a small section about .765". 

Jim

[James Rogers]

A straight barrel that fits in the narrowest portion of the barrel channel works as well.

[Jim Kibler]

A straight barrel that fits in the narrowest portion of the barrel channel works as well.

That's an interesting approach.  Although this may work fine, personally I would feel a bit uneasy with  such a set-up.  Unless the stock is thinned a great deal I suspect there might be some deflection of the barrel itself.  What I have described is very solid and secure.  In fact, even in drilling an ordinary hole, I use a similar set-up to clamp the stock to in drilling rather than relying on the barrel to keep things straight.

[Ryan McNabb]

It's really pretty simple.  The form just needs to have the shape of the barrel profile less any flair at the muzzle.  That is ignored.  The stock is thin enough that it flexes easily.  I made the form out of two 2 X 6 boards glued and screwed together side by side.  Just cut the proper profile on one edge.  If  the top edge of the stock is cut parallel with the bore centerline and the form has the barrel profile for a shape, the bottom of the barrel chanel will be straight when bent over the form.  The groove will also be straight since it was previously cut parallel to the barrel bottom.  With these conditions (bottom of barrel inlet straight and parrallel to ramrod groove) drilling the hole is straight forward. 

You can also just clamp the breech end of the stock and the muzzle end to the bench and put a block under the stock at a point sufficient to lift the stock up to present the angle you need.  You just need an inch or two.  This requires a length of bench long enough to lay the stock down without vices in the way, which might me impossible for some.

Another thing I have done is use a smaller drill bit like an 11/32, which I keep on hand.  This will give you that extra bit of goodness you need sometimes.  If I have a hole that is going shallow (seems like it is heading toward coming out of the bottom of the forestock) I back off and use the smaller drill, and drill the remainder of the hole with the drill rod flexed so as to force the bit ever downwards toward the barrel.  I've made a couple of dramatic saves this way.

The British work you mention is a fascinating example of how tricky this part can be, and is a place where you would really need to follow the bottom profile of the barrel to achieve a thin forestock at the rear pipe.  I think Jim might know of a certain beautiful French pistol that would illustrate this issue?     I also have found that the flare on the end of the wiping rod goes a long way to carrying your eye through.

I like the idea of drilling the hole and then building the gun around it - now why didn't I think of that??  This is my trick for folding leaf rear sights.