Info on Swiss Gunmaker Acler Fondu Giriens?

[Tom Moore]

I had a chance to look over a schuetzen rifle at the McGregor gun show yesterday that was made by Acler Fondu Giriens (if I got the name right). He was from Aubonne, which is in the district of Morges, canton of Vaud, Switzerland. A very nice although plain example and I was wondering if anyone had any material about him. I was too stupid to take a couple of pictures but I will see the rifle again. It has always been percussion and it looked to be to be from the mid 1800's. or so. It has the most intricate trigger system that I have ever seen. There are 4 bars and at least 4 springs (the springs are missing) that look more like a watch than a trigger system. My task is to make it work again. The gentleman had purchased the rifle with the triggers not working. The first "gunsmith" that looked at it broke the springs and then lost them. The second one tried drilling the pins instead of pressing them out and gave up after breaking several drill bits. Fortunately, he didn't loose any more of the parts. It's an interesting puzzle and I will report on my progress. Or, if no progress, remain forever silent!  If anyone can reveal any history of the gunmaker, I would certainly appreciate it. Thanks, -Tom

[Tom Moore]

Hmmm It appears that this question is dumber than my usual ones. I've been told that " acier fondu" means molten steel.  Oh well. 

[westerner]

Hi Tom.  Not a dumb question. I doubt there are many on this forum who have an interest in Swiss Schutzen rifles.

Seems to me, information about Swiss percussion rifles is rare as hens teeth.  I have had a long interest in American/German percussion Schutzen rifles. The Swiss rifles are interesting too.  What interests me about them would be projectiles, patching method and match rules.  I've done a few searches on the subject with almost no results.

I'll send this thread link to Biggi Hoelscher in Munich. She may find it interesting enough to do some research. She plans to do a section in her Feuerbixler website on German percussion schutzen rifles and may come across information about the Swiss type. 

                           Joe. 

[Tom Moore]

Thanks Joe. I appreciate it. I have made some progress on the triggers. I believe I have them assembled properly and now to make the springs. -Tom

[westerner]

Heres a link to a rifle that makes me wonder. At 24 pounds I wonder what kind of brute used the rifle.   

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=18806

How was it used?  Was it rested on a peg on a post?  A single support like seen in old engravings of wheel locks?  Shot from a rest?   Most Swiss rifles like this are full stocked. Seldom do you see any wear on the wood where it would have contacted a peg.  .62 caliber.  One $#*! of a gun.

Was it a military arm? 


                                                            Joe. 

[feuerbixler]

Hello Tom

The correct spelling is ACIER FONDU. This is French language for CAST STEEL. It has nothing to do with the name of the gunmaker. Its only the identifier for that kind of steel.

In the French wikipedia is a despriction for that kind of casted steel, how it is produced:

"On met l'acier dans le creuset avec un flux, dont on fait un secret ; et l'on place le creuset sur une brique ronde, on pose sur la grille. On a du charbon de terre réduit en coak qu'on met autour du creuset, et on remplit le fourneau ; on y met le feu, et l'on ferme entièrement l'ouverture supérieure du fourneau, avec une porte faite de brique, entouré d'un cercle de fer. Le creuset est cinq heures au fourneau, avant que l'acier soit parfaitement fondu."

Oooops. shall I translate that? Hope its not necessary... 

Why there is written also the word GIRIENS, this I dont know at the moment. Might be the name of the gunmaker. Maybe I can get some information about that, but it will be difficult. There were for sure a lot of small and very small gunmakers in the last 200 years in Switzerland, where one cannot find any information nowadays.

Where did you get the information from, that this gunmaker was in Aubonne/Vaud?

Greetings from Munich/Germany

Biggi     

[Tom Moore]

Biggi: Thanks for the info. The gun is marked "Aubonne" so I looked it up on Wikipedia and that's what it said.   -Tom

Babel Fish is always amusing:

"L' is put; steel in the crucible with a flow, which one makes a secrecy; and l' one places the crucible on a round brick, one poses on the grid. One has pit coal reduced in coak qu' one puts around the crucible, and one fills the furnace; one puts fire, and l' at it; l' is entirely closed; higher opening of the furnace, with a made brick door, surrounded d' an iron circle. The crucible is five hours with the furnace, before l' steel is perfectly molten."

[westerner]

Sounds like babel to me.   

                 Joe.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Is this a cool site or what?  Ask a question about a Swiss gun and get a response from Munich Germany, that's great!  By the way, welcome to the site Biggi, I'm sure you will be an asset here.

Frank

[Curt J]

Tom, I have two American-made (Illinois, to be exact) percussion schuetzens that have trigger assemblies like you described. One is by a maker who came from Switzerland, the other by a maker who came from Bavaria. If you run into any problems, we can slip the triggers out and compare them.  Both are functional.

[Tom Moore]

Thanks Curt, Dale had one too. It was much older and different but at least it got me going in the right direction. I'll bring the trigger to Princeton and show you my progress. I'm thinking I'll have it working by then. -Tom

[mkeen]

For information on Swiss gunmakers check Hugo Schneider, Schweizer Waffenschmiede vom 15. bis 20. Jahrhundert. It was printed in Zurich by Orell Füssli Verlag in 1976. The Library of Congress has a copy so you can get through interlibrary loan at your local public library. It is an exhaustive study of Swiss gunmakers and armors.

Martin Keen

[Tom Moore]

Thanks Martin, I'll give it a try. I hope it's in English. You saw what Babel Fish did to French!!  -Tom

[mkeen]

The book is in German, but it's not that hard to understand. There's usually a short paragraph or two on each gunsmith. The book contains hundreds of entries in an alphabetical format. If there is any information on the Swiss gunsmith you will find the name in this book.

Martin Keen

[westerner]

http://dict.leo.org/

Click on the speaker next to the word to get the audible pronunciation.

Thank you Martin.

            Joe.

[JCKelly]

Just to nudge that dead horse, Acier Fondu, or Cast Steel, is essentially the same as a modern annealed medium carbon steel.

"Cast" just means it was cast into an ingot, like 20th Century steel, then forged or rolled out to bar. From about the 1840's on, it displaced wrought iron as the preferred barrel material in the USA. It was stronger than wrought iron. Sam Colt bought steel barrel & cylinder forgings from England. Springfield rifle-muskets of the Civil War were of tubes roll-forged welded out of wrought iron. Through the early 20th century the same process was used to make "black iron" pipe. Colt's muskets used steel barrels, bored from a solid bar. You might notice that old pepperbox barrels are stamped "cast steel".

At the time we got all our cast steel billet from England. In America we did not learn how to make it consistently, until the Collins Axe Company developed a process about 1865.  Later on it was known as "Crucible Steel", and in the ealy-mid 20th Century that was the class process for making tool steel.

By the way, the English had two advantages. One, it was an Englishman named Huntsman who was the first European to learn how to melt steel (wrought iron cannot be cast, and cast iron cannot be wrought--remember?) He started with high purity, i.e. low phosphorous, Swedish wrought iron. The British had long standing contracts for all the best Swedish iron. They also had the best clay for making the crucibles in which to melt it.

[feuerbixler]

Hello Tom.

Can you show some pics of the marks and signs of that rifle? So I may ask somebody here in Germany who has books about rifle-markings and brands.

             Biggi

[Tom Moore]

Biggi: As I mentioned before, I wasn't smart enough to take pictures. The rifle is in a neighboring state and I'll try to get some pictures when I can. Sorry, -Tom

[feuerbixler]

Hello Tom,

last week I ordered in Munich's State Library out of the magazine that book "Hugo Schneider / Schweizer Waffenschmiede" for looking up that Swiss gunsmith "Giriens" from Aubonne.

There were two entries about "Giriens", I took a copy there and scanned it at home for you. Please refer to linked pic.

http://www.feuerbixler.de/varia/gunsmith-GiriensAubonne.html

I'll gonna translate it for you:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Giriens, gunsmith, Aubonne Waadt
mentioned 1832
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Giriens François, gunsmith, Aubonne Waadt
mentioned 1794-1799, probably identical with Giriens
--------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the only entry there in a thick book with thousands of gunsmiths, gunmakers, companies, factories, cutlers, crossbow makers, and a lot of other stuff. Some entries there are shown with brands and marks, but not that Mr. Giriens.

Maybe I can get some further information for you from another book, which a shooter friend owns.


Greetings from Munich/Bavaria

        Biggi.    

[mkeen]

A portion of the information in Scweizer Waffenschmeide should be translated as Aubonne [Canton] Vaud, not Waad.

Martin Keen

[feuerbixler]

Hello Martin,

it depends on that, in which language it is translated. I translated this into German. The Swiss is a country with four official languages: German, French, Italian and Romanch. And because I translated it into German, I used the German name for it: "Waadt".

       Biggi. 

[Tom Moore]

Thank you very much Biggi. I really appreciate your help. If I've learned anything at all from this, I hope it is to take pictures every chance I get!! BTB The website www.feuerbixler.de contains lots of very cool information. I just wish I could read German. Even so, the pictures tell a great story and gave me some ideas for some rifle sights as well. -Tom