Newbie Question

[Dana C]

After a couple of hard hits from life, I am getting back into BP shooting but this time around it is Muzzle loaders not BPCR.  I have the opportunity to pick up a really nice long range rifle from Doc White.
The caliber is .504.   What is this?  Is it a 50 which will shoot 490 balls or 50 cal conicals?

Thanks a lot for your help!
Dana

[smokinbuck]

Sounds like it is a .50 caliber using an oversize ball or bullet. This is not untypical for the long range rifles.
Mark

[Dana C]

Thanks Mark.  Since I posted the question, I have learned that it most likely refers to the grove diameter
of the barrel.  The lands are most likely 50 but the grooves are either 503 or 504.  I should have thought of that.

[Dennis Glazener]

Before I bought it I would make sure of the twist rate. I have purchased rifles in the past that ended up having a compromise twist, you know the kind, supposed to be ok for everything but not real good for anything. Come to think of it I have had the same problem with universal parts for automobiles
Dennis

[Dana C]

I found out that the twist is 1 in 24".  I guess that would be a comprimise twist. The Pedersoli Gibbs is either 1 in 16 or 1 in 18.  That seems to be what the long range shooters are using.

[Dan]

Sounds like a bullet gun to me, can you tell us more about the rifle?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

1:24" is a good twist for a .50 cal. rifle if you want to shoot cylindrical conoidal bullets - not balls.  It will have very shallow rifling compared to a barrel meant for patch and ball.

[Daryl]

Typically, a .504" groove diameter would have a .496" bore diameter. In around .50 cal., rifling of .005" would be normal, thus giving a bore size of .494".  None of these measurements is typical for a .50 cal. barrel.  if the obre is .500", which is typlical, and the groove depth is .504"- that measne the grooves are only .002" deep - which is NOT typical either, unless you're talking .17 cal. or smaller, ie: .12 to .14 cal.

What is good, is the 24" twist. That twist in .50 cal. will properly stabilize bullets to 600gr. - accurately. Sharps .50's had twists in the 36" range, a ite slow for long bullets, but OK out to about 400yards with bullets less than 2 calibres long, ie: to 450gr.

The Italian guns noted are .45 cal.  Hostroically, black powder guns, ie; ctg. guns, in .45 cal. typlically have twist rates from 18" to 22",  depending on the gun make.

The correct bore size must be found by you by measuring it.  A soft lead slug (don't use WW metal) and calipers are necessary. Slug the plug up in the barrel, push it out and measure the groove to groove on the slug. The major diameter (land to land) on the lead slug itself is the actual rifling groove to groove measurement, which is the larger measurement.

To obtain a proper mould, you should measure the bore and mic the slug.

.504" rings a bell with me because TC sold maxiball moulds claiming them to be .504" in diameter on the top band.  Perhaps this is Doc's method of telling you to shoot a maxiball.

 I've never heard of a .50 cal slug barrel measureing anything but .50 on the lands, and from .510" to .515" groove to groove.

This is not a round ball barrel.  Too, round ball guns are not noted as being long range rifles- that's the first indication this is a gun for shooting slugs. Best stock upon $80.00 platinum lined nipples.  The slug guns can go through them quickly.

[Dana C]

Ok, what about 1:48 twist.  If I am not mistaken, that is what TC Hawkins have.  I can pick up a beautiful 50, Wesson style with a custom 32" 1:48 twist barrel. Am I stuck shooting patched balls or can I shoot
conicals.  Also with that twist how will I do at 300 yards assuming that I do my part?  The rifle is a Craig Stolzer piece. 
I came to the realization that 1000 yard shoots are for younger guys with better eys.  Buying  Gibbs would be a waste of money in that case.

[Daryl]

48" is now and always has been a round ball twist.  In the mid 1800's, when slugs came into widespread use and breechloaders were being 'invented' by the hundreds, many makers of the new breechloaders simply used muzzleloading barrels which mostly had 48" twists. Those who were actually interested in accuracy, found they needed to increase the twist - and did- ie: Gen. Jacob's rifle had a 22" twist for shooting elongated bullets.

TC use/used 48" and called it a slug & round ball twist, to cover the fact they had cheapened out in barrel making with their button rifling methods for their barrels - ie: I've measured their barrels from .0015" to .004" deep - more shallow than should be for patched round ball and too slow for a descent length of slug.

 As Dan noted in another thread, even short slug twists, ie: picket bullet rifles, typically had 30" to 36" twists. TC's advertising covered their cost-reducing methods of button rifling quite nicely with BS - typical of 'modern' advertising.

A 48" twist (not too deeply cut) might and probably will shoot fairly well close in with short slugs but I'd not expect any 'long range' accuracy from it.  300 yards might be pushing range.  The bullet is already spinning a mite too slow to maintain stability for too long. If short enough, ie: 1 1/2 calibers, it might be OK at close range, 150 yards or closer, well within the range of a good load in a RB rifle.  in my opinion, of course.

[Dana C]

I may just be better off buy buying target barrel, Green Mtn or other for my TC.  What do you think about that?

[Dana C]

Maybe I would be better off to buy a fast twist, Oregon barrel that I can just drop into my TC.  If I can get them to dove tail the barrel for a globe front sight.  All I would have to do is have the barrrel browned or blued and maybe cut and crowned.  I can buy the barrel for a little over $200 which is $1,000 less than a Pedersoli or other fast twist rifle.

Does that make sense?

[T*O*F]

I came to the realization that 1000 yard shoots are for younger guys with better eys.  Buying  Gibbs would be a waste of money in that case.

The Gibbs is made in two different twists.  One is 18 twist for shooting heavy bullets at 1000 yards.  The other is a 22 twist (I think) that is made for shooting lighter bullets in the international short range competition at targets less than 500 yards.

For the price, you cannot even start to buy a fully equipted, out of the box gun that is capable of competing in world class competition.

[Dana C]

Well I talked to Joe at Gun works who told me that they no longer have drop in barrels, much less in any
fast twist configurations.  Moreover, he suggested that I save up and buy a Gibbs or the Tryon Match.
My great idea went down in flames and I am back to what I wanted to do in the first place.
Now I need to sell TC Hawkin 45.

[Daryl]

You could always replace that shallow, button rifled 48" twist .45 barrel, with a nice deeply grooved cut rifled .45 or .50 cal barrel or 48" to 70" twist barrel, cut to  about 34" long and have a descent round ball gun. Or - if you must shoot slugs  -

The other possibility is to buy a Winchester small-lever action-sized barrel from Track in .375 calibre (ie:.38/55), fast twist - breach it yourself (track sells TC breeches) and mount it at about 30" length.  Then, you crown it, buy some moulds, some sizing dies from Lee and start playing.  A .358 mould, from 200gr. to 280gr., paper patched just about makes it perfect to fit a .375's bore. A 9.3mm Lyman mould, ie: .366" is about perfect to fit the bore of a .375 - comes in about 250gr. You might have to size it down a thou or two - or bump it up a thou or two.  What fun though!!

As far as "serious"  international-type metalic sights for prone 1,000 yard shooting is concerned - that thousand dollars would about cover them - then there's the rifle to buy.  As with about anything, you can always go cheaper.

The problem with the heavy bullets needed for long range shooting, is the increase in pressure. With the increase in pressure, you pretty much need platinum lined nipples, I'm told. At About $80.00 each, nipples become an expense & I doubt they last 500 shots.  Even the picket bullet rifles which shoot bullets less than 2 calibres in length, need the platinum nipples - ask Dan.