Leman question

[David Rase]

Last night a friend came over to my shop to pick up a drill fixture.  During the course of his visit we got to looking at my rack of "projects in waiting".  One of the projects is a full stock Leman.  As I was explaining the project to him and showing him the parts a question came up that I need some direction on.  As stated earlier, the project is a full stock flintlock Leman.  I plan on using double set triggers along with a sand cast brass trigger guard, brass thimbles and nosecap.  Now here is where the questions start.  I hand forged a steel buttplate for this project.  We then got to talking about the patchbox.  I explained that Leman apprenticed for Fordney and that I wanted to do a Fordney style patchbox, the one with the stock wood between the patchbox lid and side plates.  I felt this was appropriate due to the fact that the gun is a flintlock.  Then the question came up, should the patchbox be brass or iron?  I know on percussion guns the cap box can be brass with the iron butt, but what about this project?  What about the buttplate, am I out to lunch trying to use a steel butt for this gun?  Should the buttplate and patchbox be the same material?  I don't have a clue.  Am I thinking outside the box too much?  
DMR

[Dave Dolliver]

Dave

When I come up Friday, I will bring Gordon's book which has a lot of pix of Lemans.  From what I see there you can use most any combination of materials (brass and iron)  'cause that's what he did.  It seems he would make whatever the customer wanted.  See you Friday.

Dave Dolliver

[skillman]

From my experience and discussions with Jack Brooks when he was At our conclave a number of years ago, you can pretty much mix brass and steel as you see fit.

Steve

[Dave Dolliver]

Gordon's book shows 8 or 9 Leman patch boxes with wood showing between lid and side panel.  One is iron, on a double rifle, the others are brass.  There's a brass one without the wood between the lide and side panels but it's a very crude one.

Dave Dolliver

[Herb]

Jim Gordon's book, Volume II, shows 22 Lemans plus 7  Leman Northwest guns and 3 "other long guns", including the cased rifle shown below.  Here are photos of Jim Gordon's Lemans in his Glorieta, NM museum I visited last August.  You can't see the details, especially in the window lit rack, but here they are.

[Chuck Burrows]

Much depends on time - the earlier Lemans apparently were all brass - the mixed iron/steel and brass are later.

[elk killer]

the fullstock flintlock i own,, the brass side plates with the wood between them,,
are dovetailed into the wood with no screws or pins,its got a iron buttplate too,
i have the original Green River mold they used to streach the trigger guards to fit double sett triggers as well..

[David Rase]

the fullstock flintlock i own,, the brass side plates with the wood between them,,
are dovetailed into the wood with no screws or pins,its got a iron buttplate too,
i have the original Green River mold they used to streach the trigger guards to fit double sett triggers as well..

Mark,
Any chance you can share some pictures.  Sounds like what you have is right inline with my upcoming project.
DMR

[Sean]

David,

Gordon's book is indeed a good resource on Leman patch boxes, and the boxes you describe are common on Lemans.  Also, as Chuck says, mixed iron and brass hardware on Lemans is something that does not show up until much later.  I've never seen this on a gun that predated the 1850's and it mostly shows up on the later wilted lily capbox guns of the Indian Wars era.

Also, Leman's are one of those guns that you see commonly built but poorly researched.  99% of the contemporary Lemans that are built to represent the fur trade era actually represent the Indian Wars era.  Most of the pre-1840 Lemans had more in common with guns built by Dreppard or Gibbbs than with what most people see as a Leman today.  After about 1840, Lemans were pretty much all Leman (re the ghost head box guns and forward).  I've also never seen a lot of Fordney in Leman's guns.  I've always thought he was really more influenced by George Tryon who he worked for after Fordney.  The fanciest early Leman that I've seen is the one pictured in Shumway's Longrifle Articles V.1 page 162.  I think the engraving style on this one is more traditional than Fordney's, but its about as close as it gets.

Sean

[elk killer]

David,,
im not home this week..
ill send you some soon as i return
Mark