Reason for early banana shaped lockplates?

[Artificer]

OK, I admit it, I do love the banana shaped lockplates but lately I've been wondering why they came into being.

Was it just because of style?

Was it because they used longer sear springs and by "bending" the rear of the lockplate, they got it to fit the stock better?

Was that rear bend to keep the lock and interior parts sort of in the center of the stock wrist as the wrist went downwards going towards the buttplate?  I have always thought this may be either the reason or a main reason for it.  By "bending" or making the banana shape lower in the rear, inletting for interior parts would be sort of centered and may not make the stock as weak?

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Gus

[Dave B]

I think it was purely the style of the time. The earlier style of lock was flater across the bottom of the plate as well as the face being flat as well. Then you start to see the french and dutch locks taking on the more curved style and having rounded face plates.

[G-Man]

I don't know if this is the reason or not, but on a gun with a lot of drop and downward angle to the wrist, the curved plate brings the tail of the lock down lower so (1) it looks better architecturally, keeping the tail of the lock more or less centered, and (2) it brings the sear down closer to the triggers without having to have an exceptionally tall trigger. Stepped wrists or stepped "toelines" also facilitate this - it allows you to bring the triggers up closer to the sear of the lock.

Guy

[rich pierce]

I agree it must have been dictated by stock style.  There are plenty of really early flat locks, from matchlocks through snaphaunce and early flintlocks. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Banana lock needs a banana sideplate.

If you try to use a banana side plate with a straight lock, it's gonna look awful strange. But you do see parts guns that have reused parts, and sometimes the side plate is all hacked up, or goes right to the edge of the lock panel.

[T*O*F]

Banana lock needs a banana sideplate.

I find that BaNa2 hardware is too slippery when trying to inlet it.  Besides that, if you leave it laying on your bench for a week or two it starts to stink.

That being said, France was the gun design leader at that time and everyone in Europe looked to them for new designs and innovations...except for the Brits who went off on their own tangent.

[Acer Saccharum]

The Brits did indeed go their own stylistic way, but not before trying out the French and Dutch designs. So many of the locks are indistinguishable as to origin.

[Jim Kibler]

It was the immigrant French Heugonot gunsmiths of the late 17th century and the French pattern books that were widely dispersed that taught the English how to build a decent gun.   The English clung to these styles and they slowly evolved over the next seventy five years or so.

[James Rogers]

If you look at a Bess there is a LOT of Dutch there. Early Dutch influence and the heavy French infiltration that Jim mentioned was a pivot point in my mind. I imagine the locks are no different than the other features.

The continental styles certainly took on an evolutionary refinement that became purely English in my opinion.  Many of the big named builders in England were either Continental immigrants or students of their training. Not only did they bring their continental style and pattern books with them, they also had to adjust to their English clients. This combination along with some carry over Dutch influence is the foundation of their fully developed style.

The key for me in following the English changes is to understand they were slower to change.  They seemed to run a number of years behind say the French. For example, solid side plates start coming on mid century when the French had been using them for at least 20-30 years.

I love the curved plate rounded locks for pistols and long arms.

Jim Chambers is working on producing a nice large round face German banana but I forget when he hopes to go to production.

[Artificer]

I don't know if this is the reason or not, but on a gun with a lot of drop and downward angle to the wrist, the curved plate brings the tail of the lock down lower so (1) it looks better architecturally, keeping the tail of the lock more or less centered, and (2) it brings the sear down closer to the triggers without having to have an exceptionally tall trigger. Stepped wrists or stepped "toelines" also facilitate this - it allows you to bring the triggers up closer to the sear of the lock.

Guy

You wrote what I was trying to say, but you did it so much better.
Gus

[Jim Kibler]

Dutch locks of the 17th century are in large part quite similar to the round faced Louis XIV locks.  Sure there are some variations but this is certainly the foundation.  So in my mind Dutch characteristics are essentially just French influence in a round about way.  Think about the round faced English lock.  The roots of this is the French Louis XIV lock as published in the Simonin prints.  The French quit using this round faced style in favor of the flat face in about 1700.  The English continued to use the round  faced design for another sixty years plus!  Talk about slow to change!

[James Rogers]

Dutch locks of the 17th century are in large part quite similar to the round faced Louis XIV locks.  Sure there are some variations but this is certainly the foundation.  So in my mind Dutch characteristics are essentially just French influence in a round about way.

You are certainly right about the "sun king" locks.   I like to include the Dutch influence to keep a pattern in my mind of the path of influence as well as the origin.  Try as i may to take something away from the French it cant be done on the flintlock. 

Another thing to consider are the French made pieces coming in early with the return of Charles II. The English makers had to be aware and taking notice of what was coming in a little prior to the main influx of Huguenot refugees coming in. Slow is the name of the game.