Original Hawken stocks

[Darrin McDonal]

Ok here is one for ya. My question is, did original Hawkens built built by the Hawken brother have cast-off in the stocks? Also what where the big differences in the early & late style Hawkens? I am not a huge Hawken fan but I have built one for someone in the past but it was from a pre-inlet stock that they bought & never got to so the asked me to take over. But now I may build one for a customer the correct way (from the blank) and I need to really would like to know the nuances.
Thanks for the help.
Darrin

[Kentucky Jeff]

Darrin,
   I've handled three original Hawken Rifles over the years and you need to understand that the Hawken bro's shop was in business from roughly 1820 to well past 1850.  They made custom guns to order as well.
Over the years the styles changed quite a bit and its almost impossible to say that this or that was a characteristic  design trait that every Hawken rifle had or even "most" Hawken rifles had.   Its simply not cut and dried.
   I sat through Don Stith's seminar at Dixons this year and held a two of his Hawken rifles and they were quite different. 
   To me the common theme that seems to scream Hawken is they were built very similar to Tennessee style iron mounted guns albeit with their own unique twist.   
   Don will tell you the fullstocks were almost all universally made with square cheek rests and the halfstocks were made with rounded cheek rests.  But common misconceptions are that fullstocks were all early and all had the flat grip rail when I have actually seen two original fullstocks that clearly did not have the flat grip rail. 
   The Halfstocks had a rather unigue profile to the profile of the stock while the fullstock vatriations tended to be more slab sided.
   Impossible to say with any degree of accuracy that this or that is correct as there was just so much variation in over 30 years of gun building where we only have perhaps 300 surviving rifles to use as a guidepost. 

[Darrin McDonal]

So there is a much greater leway for design than common conceptions lends one to believe.
 Can you tell me about the flint Hawkens. The person I am dealing with would like a flint, which I thought was great. Is there anything that comes to mind that one should"not" see in a flint version ?

[rich pierce]

There are few surviving Hawkens that show evidence of being flint and so the existence and characteristics of flint Hawkens of the "plains rifle" type are hotly debated.  There is at least one fine J&S Hawken fancy flint longrifle looking nothing like a plains rifle.

[Darrin McDonal]

Rich, can you tell me where that J&S flint longrifle is? Or are there any documents,photos or descriptions of it?
Darrin

[Dphariss]

Ok here is one for ya. My question is, did original Hawkens built built by the Hawken brother have cast-off in the stocks? Also what where the big differences in the early & late style Hawkens? I am not a huge Hawken fan but I have built one for someone in the past but it was from a pre-inlet stock that they bought & never got to so the asked me to take over. But now I may build one for a customer the correct way (from the blank) and I need to really would like to know the nuances.
Thanks for the help.
Darrin

If you can get a good enough picture of it the rifle on pages 2 27 (Plates 3, 36-40) of Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." is a good choice. Its an early gun, no patent breech etc.
Collectors like to think that the FS Hawken is not a "plains rifle" since in their thinking the "plains rifle" is a 1/2 stock.
This is just a way of thinking. The FS hawken was as much a plains rifle as the 1/2 stock.
The long tang, long trigger bar Hawken design is a very durable rifle and is hands down the best rough usage hunting rifle.
I have seen photos of Hawken FS rifles with buttstock shapes very much like the early J&S Hawken 1/2 stock rifles. Its just not possible to make hard and fast pronouncements on hand made rifles. Later guns using store bought cast buttplates were more consistent perhaps but the brazed plates are not likely to come out the same so the buttstocks are more likely to vary. Note plates 22, 36, 45 and 57 in "Hawken Rifles..."
Considering the popularity of the flintlock in the west till circa 1840 its simply silly to think that the Hawken shop did not make FL rifles for the western trade. Everyone else did.
There is not a good lock for a flint Hawken on the market. The L&R Manton is too small and the "Late English" is too big.
A freind of mine male a lot of flint Hawkens and made his own lock.

It basically the Ashmore lock shown in Baird's book.

Below is a modern reproduction with a stock that would make a flintlock just as easily.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Rich, can you tell me where that J&S flint longrifle is? Or are there any documents,photos or descriptions of it?
Darrin

Its in the Museum at Cody WY. I *think*. They have 2-3 of the heavy Flint  J&S Hawken Kentucky pics mixed with another FS Hawken layout.
http://www.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=32976
It has been converted to percussion (apparently) by shortening the barrel at the breech and installing a patent breech. Still has the flintlock screw holes (frizzen & spring) in the lock plate and has *2* lock screws.
The J&S Hawken Kentucky has a patchbox. It is also pictured with Bill Fuller in Baird's book.

Dan

[rich pierce]

The one I am thinking of is a fine "Kentucky" and would have been suitable for Kindig's book.  Will dig out sources.

The one you posted the link for at the Cody museum looks like it has lock panels wider at front than at rear.  Camera angle or maybe that characteristic was established quite early, Dan?

[Darrin McDonal]

Excellent! These are the details I like to here. I suppose I will need to get the book. Another book, wow. You just dont run out of buying those. We will all have extensive libraries for our decendants to deal with.
 I like that full stock look.
Thanks for the continuing info.
Darrin

[Dphariss]

The one I am thinking of is a fine "Kentucky" and would have been suitable for Kindig's book.  Will dig out sources.

The one you posted the link for at the Cody museum looks like it has lock panels wider at front than at rear.  Camera angle or maybe that characteristic was established quite early, Dan?

The rifle has a pierced patch box and from the Cody pic a long engraved toe plate.
Jake and Sam were trained during the "Golden Age" and knew how to make Kentuckies.
IIRC this is a heavy match rifle and weighs about 15 pounds.

Dan

[Roger B]

To my knowledge, there are no flint Hawkens in the Cody collection.  The ornate rifle being mentioned sounds like the Atchisson rifle which is a percussion halfstock with silver furniture & inlaid with mother of pearl & silver.  The rest of, or at least the majority of, the other Hawkens on display are from the Leonard collection.  I was privileged to be invited (with my youngest son) down to their vault & held a Hawken halfstock attributed to the liver eater.  They also had two pistols (style of the TOW Hawken pistol kits) which are likely fakes labeled "Hawkens"  I wish I would have been there to see Don's seminar. 
Roger B.

[Dphariss]

To my knowledge, there are no flint Hawkens in the Cody collection.  The ornate rifle being mentioned sounds like the Atchisson rifle which is a percussion halfstock with silver furniture & inlaid with mother of pearl & silver.  The rest of, or at least the majority of, the other Hawkens on display are from the Leonard collection.  I was privileged to be invited (with my youngest son) down to their vault & held a Hawken halfstock attributed to the liver eater.  They also had two pistols (style of the TOW Hawken pistol kits) which are likely fakes labeled "Hawkens"  I wish I would have been there to see Don's seminar. 
Roger B.

The rifle I am thinking of is a long (45" barrel) heavy  J&S Hawken FS Kentucky presumably converted from flint as described in a previous post. It is Plate 81 and 82 in Baird's book. Page 60. It was owned at the time by Bill Fuller in Copper Landing, AK the rifle was sold south at some time after the book was published and I do not know where it is except that some pics of it are on the Cody Museums web site. The lock has been converted to percussion and it DOES have a front lock screw which is a good indicator that it was originally flint. But a detailed examination would need to be done and even this might be inconclusive at this date. It is interesting that the rifle appears to have an AMPCO nipple in place in the Cody picture. http://www.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/ImageViewer.cfm?object_key=32976&img=canon1d2005%2F1997.4.14v5.jpg

The Hawken shop *probably* sold belt pistols and such that they did not make. Imports from England or the east. Perhaps marked or unmarked. During the Oregon migration they were not able to make enough guns to fill the need according to statement by Sam.
The TOW Hawken pistol is based on a pair of 65 caliber swivel ramrod J&S Hawken percussion pistols owned by William Locke at one time. These are pictured in Baird's book, "The Plains Rifle"  and in a book of the Locke collection. It is entirely possible that more of these were made. They would have been very handy if running buffalo.
There may well be non-Hawken made guns out there stamped with the Hawken stamps. These might have been done in the  period Jake and Sam were working, even later by Gemmer or by someone in possession of original stamps at a much later date. See the J&S Hawken pistol on pg 61 of Baird's book its likely a pistol bought from an eastern supplier and then stamped before sale.

Dan

[Roger B]

You are right Dan, I don't remember seeing the picture of the Hawken rifle in question before, so I went over to the sight to have a look.  It certainly was a flinter in an earlier life.  I wonder if this was a refurbed rifle, given the hardware & the lock?  The easiest way to percussion a flint is to put a drum in it, but this one was rebreeched, perhaps shortened & recut, or rebarreled.  Impossible to know.  Also too bad that they didn't date their rifles with a stamp or engraving.

I should have said that I thought the pistols in question were "knock offs" as opposed to "fakes".  Evidence exists documenting Hawken pistol production, but I can't imagine the brothers using the "Hawkens" stamp when everything else they made was stamped "Hawken".  Even Gemmer used "Hawken" as did the son befor Gemmer took over.  I would bet that these are Belgian "knock offs" made during the period.  They are nice pistols no matter who made them.
Roger B.