50 and 54 cal ballistics ?

[Daryl]

To get 1,700fps in my 14 bore, this gun reqires 240gr. 2F.  it takes another 90gr. of 2f to get another 70fps.  I would not even consider trying 3f (lower charge, same velocity) due to the pressure spike that would could happen in the large bore.

I am happy with 140gr. 2f which seems to shoot identically to the charge of 165gr. 1986 grade of GOEX 2F - which gave 1,500fps to 1,550fps.  165gr.(6 drams) still shoots as accurately as before, and so does the 140gr. charge.  I suspect 140gr.(5 drams) would be enough for deer -- HA!  Recoil is not a problem with these loads, however everything much over about 165gr. gets distrubing.

Due to the 480gr. round ball, the trajectory to 130 yards is quite sufficient to allow centre of mass aiming at a deer. However, the gun has 100, 150 and 200yard sights, which makes aiming easy. I do use a small pocket sized laser range, which makes sighting easy for longer ranges that have some single sight shooters wondering where to hold (so they shouldn't shoot).

Larger balls hit harder, penetrate more deeply with ltoads - always.  The only problem is with really large bore sizes and the attendent recoil- to achieve a flat enough trajectory to be effective, requires more powder than the average man can shoot.

This is the reason for Forsythe's suggestion of the 16 to 14 bore sizes being the 'standard' size for hunting large and dangerous game. The larger bores being relegated to very close quarters on very dangerous game or for specialty loads with exploasive bullets, although exploasive bullets worked well in the 14 as well. Except for the bullets that actually exploaded, the round ball was vastly superior for killing any and all wild game.  Slugs did not work well at all.

[Dphariss]

To get 1,700fps in my 14 bore, this gun reqires 240gr. 2F.  it takes another 90gr. of 2f to get another 70fps.  I would not even consider trying 3f (lower charge, same velocity) due to the pressure spike that would could happen in the large bore.

I am happy with 140gr. 2f which seems to shoot identically to the charge of 165gr. 1986 grade of GOEX 2F - which gave 1,500fps to 1,550fps.  165gr.(6 drams) still shoots as accurately as before, and so does the 140gr. charge.  I suspect 140gr.(5 drams) would be enough for deer -- HA!  Recoil is not a problem with these loads, however everything much over about 165gr. gets distrubing.

Due to the 480gr. round ball, the trajectory to 130 yards is quite sufficient to allow centre of mass aiming at a deer. However, the gun has 100, 150 and 200yard sights, which makes aiming easy. I do use a small pocket sized laser range, which makes sighting easy for longer ranges that have some single sight shooters wondering where to hold (so they shouldn't shoot).

Larger balls hit harder, penetrate more deeply with ltoads - always.  The only problem is with really large bore sizes and the attendent recoil- to achieve a flat enough trajectory to be effective, requires more powder than the average man can shoot.

This is the reason for Forsythe's suggestion of the 16 to 14 bore sizes being the 'standard' size for hunting large and dangerous game. The larger bores being relegated to very close quarters on very dangerous game or for specialty loads with exploasive bullets, although exploasive bullets worked well in the 14 as well. Except for the bullets that actually exploaded, the round ball was vastly superior for killing any and all wild game.  Slugs did not work well at all.

I have never tried to get 1750 with the current barrel.
But I did make it easily with the previous one. But recoil was vicious.
The first barrel was rough at the breech and I think this changed the initial burn rate of the powder as detailed by Greener and others back to at least 1830s in trying to increase penetration in shotguns.  It made about 100+ fps more velocity with the same breech and barrel length and powder charge. The twist was 93" IIRC in the first barrel and 80 in this one.


Dan

[Daryl]

The charge that made 1770fps in the 14 bore, lifted me up off the seat to almost standing.  I was chronographing and dumped in 2 165gr. charges by mistake - one ball only - could have hurt with 2, but not double loaded, that's a mere 165gr. of powder and 1,125gr. of projectiles weight - nothing horrid about that, compared to 330gr. with 960gr. of lead. I'm sure that might have 'shaken' the stock, as Forsyth was want to say.

[hanshi]

For perspective a .458 Win Mag fires it's 500grn. bullet at around 1900fps or a little more.  The 14 bore would add half the weight of the powder charge to the ball (ejecta).  Hurts just thinking about it.

[northmn]

If one looks at Daryl's comments he is getting about 1700 fps with about 1/2 the powder to ball ratio, which is a common hunting load in the smaller bores up to 54.  I do not have data for a 16 or 14 gauge ball and its velocity loss at 100 yards, but I will bet that they are traveling faster at 100 yards driven at 1600 at the muzzle than a 54 driven at 1800.  A 58 will hit at the same speed at 100 yards driven at 1600 fps as a 50 started out at 1800.  I hae also noticed that as the bore size increases the increments needed to get a significant increase in velocity also has to go up.  Where 2-3 grain in my 25 might make a difference it really takes about 20 grains in the 58 to get any kind of increase.  i use 90 grains of Swiss 2f in the 58.

DP

[JCKelly]

From about 1800 through 1855 US Army rifles were .54 cal, used .52" patched round ball.
Our army always has been pretty good at killin' things.

[Buckscoshooter]

FWIW, I have noticed with my kills that the .50 up to 100 yard + or - after hitting the deer seems to bang around in the body like a pin-ball. On the other hand my .54 at the same distance will enter and stay more in line with the shot. That being said with both I use a 2F charge of 70 grains and Hornady .490 and .530 RB's with buttered .015 ticking. Just my 2 cents worth.   Note: To date not a single deer took another step once hit from any Muzzy shot I ever took. Somthing to be said for the knock-down power and velocity of Black-powder (flintlock) hunting.

[Daryl]

The hemsipherical shaped impacting surface of the round ball generally has a 'telling effect' on animals.  Moose and probably elk seem to shirk off impacts from the small bores - at least up to 60 cal. I've not seen moose hit with 62's, but up to .58's it's usually a mad dash then pile up dead inside 50 yards if both lungs are holed.

The large bores have a rather "profound" effect - more of a 'smashing or crushing blow' from 10 through 16 bore balls.

[Dphariss]

FWIW, I have noticed with my kills that the .50 up to 100 yard + or - after hitting the deer seems to bang around in the body like a pin-ball. On the other hand my .54 at the same distance will enter and stay more in line with the shot. That being said with both I use a 2F charge of 70 grains and Hornady .490 and .530 RB's with buttered .015 ticking. Just my 2 cents worth.   Note: To date not a single deer took another step once hit from any Muzzy shot I ever took. Somthing to be said for the knock-down power and velocity of Black-powder (flintlock) hunting.

This is one of those your mileage may vary things.
If you hit a major bone a 50-54 may deflect. But so will a lot of other projectiles. I have had "new and improved" 45-70 factory ammo deflect radically 2 for 2 with no major bones struck.
I have done straight line pass through with both on deer at various ranges. I have had straight through pass through to 140 yards or so with both.

I have very seldom had a deer pile up in its tracks. 99% will run no matter what they are shot with. Some go a short distance some will go long distances. Most drop to the shots involve a ball/bullet close to the spinal column.  I have seen MD bucks shot high chest with a 7mm mag and lug hanging out the exit wound make 150 yards +
The last deer I dropped in its tracks that hit no major bones was a buck I shot with the 16 bore.  This passed through the center of the shoulders without hitting a major bone.
But he, unknown to me had been whipped in a fight with another buck and likely was not 100%.
I shot a doe with the same rifle at about 40 yards end on  massive damage destroying the heart. Deer turned 90 degrees and ran 55 yards. I really have not shot enough deer with this to make a scientific study. I have shot a deer with a 38-40 BP load and while it killed about as well as anything else the tiny wound channels convinced me not to do it again.
I have had a WT doe shot nearly identical to the buck above with a 54 straight through pass through at about 25-30 yards deer turned 90 degrees and piled up 200 steps across the hayfield. But note that her feet only touched the ground 10 times, I counted, in that time and she landed dead and slid to a stop on the snow. 100 gr of FFF, 530 rb close range and the deer ran off with no  reaction to the shot.

I am only stating this so that folks that shoot deer and they run off will not think they have a problem.  It all in how things work out.  Some critters will fall over shot with a popgun others run off with large holes where vital organs used to be.
Much of it is mind set on the part of the deer (Elk, Moose etc) and its level of excitement before being shot.
Sir William Drummond Stewart (IIRC) stated that it was easier to drop an Elk on the spot with his 20 bore rifle than a Deer.

Dan

[Paddlefoot]

No vast experience here but I do think some of the reaction has to do with the mental state of the animal at the time of the hit. I shot a mulie doe up in Idaho that dropped so fast she didn't even kick enough to disturb the snow around her. Used a .308 with Hornady 165s. Another doe from the same herd took a bad hit from a 300 Win Mag and didn't really drop when I shot her from breastbone to butthole. Just kinda staggered around in a circle a couple times before tipping over. She had half her guts blown out from the 300 and still ran 75-80 yards right at me. Difference was the alarm had gone up and #2 was already in flight mode when hit the 1st time. The first doe really wasn't too worried about me when I shot her. She bunched up to jump over some brush and at the shot jumped straight up and dropped dead right there. Not a particularly devestating shot. Hit behind the last rib on the right side angled across taking the back off of each lung and breaking a rib on the left side. Bullet stopped a couple inches away right under the skin. May not have a darn thing to do with .50, .54 or .62 being a better game getter but I have always found it an interesting situation to think over.

[hanshi]

I've had 5, that I can easily recall, that fell in their hoof prints.  I've also had them run 35-75 yards on numerous occasions.  They all died; some just didn't know they were.

[Buckscoshooter]

Interesting replys fella's. I guess I should say I do on occasion hunt with a Rifle, either 30-30 or 30-06 and have done everything from double lungers to the classic breast to butt. For what ever reason when using High Powered rifles I think the bullet is traveling at such a high velocity it is easy for a deer or any big game to not even know it is hit and run some distance. I was just referring to my own experences with Muzzy hunting. I say 9/10 of my shots are in the pie plate kill zone with any gun, just that there is somthing awsome about a round ball at 1800fps. I would say it has been luck of the draw that I did not have to track any of my deer shot with a Muzzy. (and yes I do believe that the inital shock is one thing but the pin-ball effect is what really clobbers them)

[Daryl]

forsythe equates the impact from a ointed bullet as being like the "thrust of a dagger", comparred to the hemispherical ball's "benumbing effect of the blow".  He is talking about large bore, of course, but there is still a co-relation between the different shapes of projeciles.  I've a friend who uses nothign but Hornady RN's out  of his .300 Mag. It is because of the immediate apparent effect that he uses them. Even in a fast modern gun, there is a visible difference between a RN and a pointed bullet.  This substanciates or proves Fosythe's written observtions of 150 yards ago.

Everyone needs and needs to heed that book.