Smoothbore or rifling on my first flintlock???

[vegard_dino]

Hello all

More questions here

I now know I like to get my first muzzleloader, Jaeger in style.
But, reading hunting reports here, I also se great use for a smoothbore rifle, turning it into a shotgun rifle. Sounds good.

The gun will be used for weekend shooting at the range and hunting small game here in Norway and deer/wild boar and so now and then in the US.

So for a first timer, will a smoothbore gun/shotgun combination be "better"? Or will the aded accuracy from the rifled barrel be a plus, leaving me with "just" a rifle?

[northmn]

At what range will you be using the round ball   If most of your shots are close like within 50 yards a smooth rifle is great.  Personally, for something a little tougher like boar a larger bore like a 16 or 12 might be a consideration.

DP

[vegard_dino]

Range..well, as close as I can get. I like to stalk, so I guess we are talking up to 40-50 yards.
The idea with the smoothbore was that it also can be used as a shotgun.
But,, maybe it is harder to get good accuracy for a first timer with balls and a smoothbore?

[Berks Liberty]

Vegard,

I'd go with versatility, it sounds like your instinct is making the decision for you.  Smoothbore for your first gun then your second one could be something with rifling.  Good Luck!

Jason

[northmn]

Roundball had a thread a while back where he tested rundball in a jug choked turkey barrel or full choke.  He had adequate accuracy with a round ball and got two deer with it.  Again depending on what is being hunted you can come up with some interesting combinations.  If I had one gun it would be a smooth rifle in 12 ga, but only because I have so much reloading stuff for a 12 and so much is available.  A 16 would be ideal for my usual use and the 20 is not all bad.  I also use Express sights on the smooth rifle which permits some wing shooting abilities.   For most small game I find the cylinder bore adequate but I wonder if I should not get a reamer and jug choke it to about skeet or IC.  You might consider another design other than Jaeger.  Look at some of the pro builders stuff on this thread.   I know Mike Brooks mades fowlers and has his own website.  I apologize to the others that I have not mentioned.

DP

[Standing Bear]

Yep, a 20 bore flintlock smoothie would be a great all around gun!
TC

[omark]

being a westerner, i lean to a rifle because of distances. but if i was in heavy forests or brush i would go with the smooth, a lot of versatilitely there and sounds like good enough accuracy for big game.   mark

[Daryl]

I belive DP hit the nail dead on.  For me, under the circumstances of range, and game, I'd go with a 16 bore & smooth with sights - but only if I was going to do a LOT of shot/bird shooting with it.   If I wasn't going to shoot a lot of shot, I'd go with a 16 bore rifle, and buy a cheap single fowler in 20 bore or 12 bore from/through Track for under $1,000.

I used my .14 bore rifle and a .58 rifle, with shot, for shooting grouse close in- ie: 20 to 25 yards max.  It worked and I killed a number of grouse using the rifles that way. No, it didn't fill the rifling with lead. - I don't know why.  I think perhaps any lead it might have picked up, was not ironed on very hard, and the first ball/patch combination I loaded (I like them tight), simply removed any lead on the way donw, or out.

[vegard_dino]

Thanks all for helping me. Great information here.

Well, it was the posts here by Roundball that made me think of a smoothbore for my first muzzleloader.
If I am going to hunt a lot of birds/shot shooting?.......I do not know, but it is the only way to hunt with the muzzleloader here, so I think I will.
But, as Daryl says, another way is to use a .14 bore or something like that with rifling, and just shoot shots with it.

Some more thinking and a lot of reading to do. Fun.
Thanks all for helping me in the muzzleloaders world.

[northmn]

Its a matter of primary use.  I had an uncle from Missouri that used a Stevens single shot 16 ga to shoot quail, rabbits and squirrels as well as his yearly deer.  Since I buidl my own I have rifles for deer and use the fowlers for small game but the "one gun for all uses"  is an intriguing one.  One reason I would use a larger bore is that they do better with shot and I would like to get out and include pheasants and possibly waterfowl on my uses.   

DP

[SCLoyalist]

I now know I like to get my first muzzleloader, Jaeger in style.
But, reading hunting reports here, I also se great use for a smoothbore rifle, turning it into a shotgun rifle. Sounds good.
The gun will be used for weekend shooting at the range and hunting small game here in Norway and deer/wild boar and so now and then in the US.
So for a first timer, will a smoothbore gun/shotgun combination be "better"? Or will the aded accuracy from the rifled barrel be a plus, leaving me with "just" a rifle?

 Are there examples of original smoothbore Jaegers?  Perhaps there are such examples, but if not, and if  historical authenticity is important, then you've got to got with a rifled Jaeger, or a smoothie in some other style.      As you noted, there are advantages to a smoothbore in being able to switch between ball and shot.   There are plenty of shooters who do well with a smoothbore out to 100 yds, especially with a rear sight.  However, if I thought I were going to be shooting more 100 yard shots at targets than 25 yard shots at squirrels, birds, or clay pigeons, I'd go with a rifled barrel.  Out to 50 ydards, the performance difference  with patched roundball  between smoothbore and rifled barrels is minimal.  Good Luck. SCL

[vegard_dino]

Historical correctness is not 100% needed.......I can go for a Jaeger with smoothbore.
Have to do some more thinking about smoothbore v.s rifled barrel.

Thanks for helping

[Leatherbelly]

 Dino,
  Here's a thought. If you want to hunt moose etc. in Norway, I would go with a .62 rifled, say in a Jaeger. Then look for a nice fowler/tradegun in .62 calibre also. You then would likely be able to cast one ball size for both guns. This would give you three choices for hunting, close range, long range and birds with shot.
 Traditional smoothbores/tradeguns have a front sight only and take some tweeking to get them to shoot perfect.I think they are more of a challenge to shoot and that is why I like them. Good luck with your quest.Cheers,Roy

[vegard_dino]

Thanks for the information.

Good point there. Will lett you all know how it goes and what I end up with.

[omark]

Thanks for the information.

Good point there. Will lett you all know how it goes and what I end up with.

  doesnt matter at all,,,,,,,,,,,,youll wind up with several any way.          mark

[hanshi]

Once you start you just can't stop.

[vegard_dino]

Yes. I think so.....LOL.
Interesting to learn so much about these great old guns.

[Dphariss]

If shooting solid shot there is no reason to have a smoothbore.
The only thing a SB does better than a rifle is in shooting bird or buckshot.
Its a specialty firearm.

Dan

[northmn]

If shooting solid shot there is no reason to have a smoothbore.
The only thing a SB does better than a rifle is in shooting bird or buckshot.
Its a specialty firearm.

Dan

Its is the other way around, a rifle is very specialized.  Small calibers for smaller game generally and larger calibers for larger game, ball or bullet only, with some pretty much ball only.  The smooth bore is more adapted to handle shot and ball.  If one is going ot shoot ball only in a smooth bore like some seem to do then a rifle is much better.

DP

[vegard_dino]

Thanks all for replying and helping me. Great information and help here.
Well, with a smoothbore gun I CAN go after birds or hares, at the same time I hunt deer.
That is why I am thinking...........Smooth or rifling.
But, a 14-16mm (around 54-58 cal I think) caliber will maybe be to small to give a good pattern with shots for birds?
If so, then maybe better of with one with rifling.

[Dphariss]

If shooting solid shot there is no reason to have a smoothbore.
The only thing a SB does better than a rifle is in shooting bird or buckshot.
Its a specialty firearm.

Dan

Its is the other way around, a rifle is very specialized.  Small calibers for smaller game generally and larger calibers for larger game, ball or bullet only, with some pretty much ball only.  The smooth bore is more adapted to handle shot and ball.  If one is going ot shoot ball only in a smooth bore like some seem to do then a rifle is much better.

DP

The rifle is specialized. But the smoothbore only does one thing well and that is use small shot.
A slow twist rifle will shoot shot fairly well to 20-25 yards as far as that goes.

The effectiveness of the rifle vs the smoothbore in combat in the woods, as opposed to the open field linear tactics, is well proven by the performance of Morgan's Riflemen at Saratoga where they natives and French Canadians all deserted and went home rather than go into the woods to scout against the rifle armed frontiersmen. The writing of the surviving British officers are very revealing. A general order was written that made going outside the picket line a capital offense. Basically if a redcoat or their allies went into the woods he was a good as dead. There muskets and trade guns were apparently of little use in this context.

If the primary or only use is shooting solid shot what is the advantage of the smoothbore?
How much small shot and powder does it take to kill a rabbit? vs Even a 50 caliber rifle. which will kill rabbits and grouse with 20-30 grains of powder squirrels might require more.
I never could see the economics of shooting 3/4 to maybe 2 ounces (as some modern shooters do) of shot and a bunch of powder to kill small game.
Apparently this attitude was shared by quite a few people in Colonial America by the 1740s, at least those who actually used the firearm rather than just keeping it for militia requirements as a great many people were required to do.
Apparently the fowling piece was not held in high regard by everyone.
From 1790
http://books.google.com/books?id=MzFCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+capture+of+charles+Johnston&source=bl&ots=TerRVWuoAd&sig=knqF2FHDMLpwM6IWvc5ysxqW37o&hl=en&ei=kF5hTdn5Ao6btwefqNnADA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false



He also states the natives who attacked them were all rifle armed. I guess we have to take his word for it. I question this but he was actually THERE.

Dan

[Leatherbelly]

Dino,
  Dan is a very serious shooter. He has forgotten the "fun factor"that is acquired from solid shot(round ball)shooting from a trade gun/fowler.
No, they ain't as accurate as a rifle.If you have a rifle and a smoothbore, you will find shooting round ball from a smoothie is away more challenging and more fun then most other muzzle loaders,IMHO!  It's more like shooting a bow. You need to replicate the same hold and anchor point  every time. This is what I call the "fun factor".Plus, the smoothie shooters out here are more fun to shoot with then those anal retentive rifle guys,LOL!

[vegard_dino]

LOL
Thanks. Well, need to have fun to.
Thanks for the information.

[Daryl]

LB - how much you selling your new smoothie for?