Author Topic: Crystallized Steel  (Read 6844 times)

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Crystallized Steel
« on: January 23, 2011, 07:12:43 PM »
Under another topic, Bookie mentioned an antique Remington barrel that failed, and appeared to be "crystallized"
This is exactly what a fracture of coarse-grained steel looks like.
All steel is made of many small crystals of iron all stuck together. Usually the crystals are too small to see with the naked eye. Generally they can be seen under the microscope very nicely at 100X. When the steel has been heated very hot, which happens during the forging process, the crystals can grow quite large. A heat treatment, such as anneal, or normalize (heat about 1650F and air cool) causes new, smaller grains to grow.
Metallurgists usually call a metal crystal a "grain", in English, "korn" in German.

The point here is that coarse grained steel, any kind, any hardness, tends to be brittle. So when it breaks one often sees those bright shiney broken crystals.  If it is fine grained, and breaks for whatever reason, the crystals (grains) are too small to see. The surface of, say, a fractured file, has a silky appearance.

The practical aspect for guys making odd gun parts by forging is, do anneal or normalize that forging to refine the grains. The finished product will be much tougher. This is "book learning" it is also very true. It is important that any high carbon item such as a spring, knife, or axe meant for actual use beyond throwing, be annealed after forging to refine the grain. Then it may be hardened by your usual process.
And, Remington obviously did not anneal that barrel after forging it. Bad practice! Walter Cline, in The Muzzle-Loading Rifle Then and Now says: "After the barrel was welded, it was annealed and made as soft as possible . . . place the barrel on a level piece of ground . . .then pile a long heap of dry chestnut wood over it, and then set fire to the wood and leave it until all the wood had been consumed and the barrel had slowly cooled."
 Starting with a billet of steel at Remington, the normal way to make an octagonal barrel would be to forge an octagonal blank. In the '60's I spoke with an older gentleman at Allegheney Ludlum's Leechburg, PA, plant. He recalled when they forged octagonal blanks for Winchester.

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 07:54:08 PM »
Thanks JC Kelly: This is info that almost all of us can use.    Gary

gregg

  • Guest
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 10:42:44 PM »
Thanks JC Kelly: This is info that almost all of us can use.    Gary
Here to.

SPG

  • Guest
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 11:22:07 PM »
Mr. Kelly,

Do you have any knowledge about Douglas barrels that were annealed on special order from Log Cabin Gunshop back in the early '70s? In conversations with several 'smiths they remember these barrels as having a hard scale on the outside and thought that this was from the annealing process.

Thanks,

Steve Garbe

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 12:59:41 AM »
SPG, all I know is hearsay, that these barrels were annealed, or at least stress relieved, to make them soft like the old wrought iron barrels. A 1100-1200F stress relief in air would make a nice black scale. Also would get rid of the residual stresses from the cold drawing operation used to make the barrel octagonal.

Offline Steve Bookout

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • AF & AM, #59
    • Toad Hall Rifleshop
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 12:56:52 AM »
Mr. Kelly, I just found this thread and must say that once again, I learned something.  You even spoke so someone like me could understand.  Thank you.  Cheers, Bookie
Steve Bookout, PhD, CM, BSM
University of South Viet Nam
Class of 1969
Class of 1970
Class of 1971

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 01:44:23 AM »
So now the question becomes. What do we know of the annealling and strees relieving processes on Getz, Colerain, Rice and Long Hammock barrels?s

I think all of these are 12L14 and I haven't heard of any failures??  JC What can you tell us??
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

California Kid

  • Guest
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 01:54:07 AM »
Tim, I think the thing with the Douglas barrels was that the octagon shape was cold drawn. The Co's you mentioned either mill or plane the Oct. Or turn if round.

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 868
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 02:14:42 AM »
California Kid:  You are correct - the barrels that  Dr. Tim referred to are indeed planed, milled or turned round and not cold drawn to make them octagon.  I see no reason to fear these barrels as they are safer than the old "iron" barrels that were forged on an anvil as long as proper loads and proper workmanship are maintained.   My opinion ;)   Hugh Toenjes
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 02:44:11 AM by Blacksmoke »
H.T.

California Kid

  • Guest
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 02:26:20 AM »
Thats my feeling as well.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Crystallized Steel
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 01:00:31 AM »
Ah=Ha!!  a little light instead of nothing but heat!!  :o   Thanks guys!! ;D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:01:01 AM by DrTimBoone »
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming