Author Topic: Engraving- on or off the gun?  (Read 9165 times)

Offline James

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Engraving- on or off the gun?
« on: January 30, 2011, 12:30:04 AM »
Hello, I've just watched the Beginning engraving video by Jack Brooks. I am wondering if the patchbox and hunter's star would be engraved on or off the gun? That they need to be flush with the wood is why I ask. Thank you.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." P.Henry

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2011, 01:00:58 AM »
I usually engrave the star on the gun, but since the patchbox is removeable I take it off. I use Bondo or 5 min epoxy on a board that I clamp in the vise. The Bondo supports the thin metal. This can rotate to whatever angle is convenient while engraving. Use a heat gun or propane torch to release.

Offline JTR

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2011, 01:04:32 AM »
Good question!
That question was discussed here a couple of years ago, with no definite conclusion reached. I suspect that it was probable done both ways, depending the the maker.
I have no proof one way or another but believe it would have been a lot easier to engrave a patchbox off the gun,,, so cut out the patchbox and finalize its shape. Inlet it it onto the stock including all the screw or nail holes. Take it off the gun and engrave it, then put it back on the gun. It would be easier to do this way if the patchbox had a lot of engraving on it.
If the patchbox, or other inlay had just a bit of engraving, it might be just as quick and easy to engrave it on the gun.
For sure if you were doing a full inlay on the comb or under the forearm where the inlay has a lot of curvature to it, engraving it off the gun would be much easier!

John  
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Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2011, 02:12:58 AM »
I would think it would have been done off the gun and maybe with a pitch bowl to hold the work. Jerry? Tom? what do you think?
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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2011, 02:27:58 AM »
I always engrave the patchbox, toe plate,butt plate and inlays on the gun.  However the lock, side plate and barrel are easily removeable so those are engraved separate.  Engraving "on the gun" is somewhat of a head ache as it is difficult to "rotate" the gun as needed to get the proper approach with the graver.  I have made a special engraving pedestal that I can walk most of way around while the gun remains clamped to the pedestal.  ;)    Hugh Toenjes
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 04:07:46 AM »
Hi ta,
Do as much of your engraving as possible with the inlay off the gun.  It is very hard to achieve smooth curves with a hammer and chisel if you cannot spin the work.  You have to learn how to lean your body back and forth to make the curve.  If you must engrave an inlay on the gun then let me share a little tip that I learned the hard way.  First learn to hand push the graver instead of using a hammer and chisel.  Then take the gun out of your vise and simply lay it in your lap.  Make sure you have space all around to swing the gunstock and engrave it with one hand and turn the stock with the other.  You can make very smooth scrolls that way but you will have to master the hand powered graver. If you cannot do that for deep lines then do all your major outlining with a hammer and chisel while the gun is in the vise but do the shading and detail with the hand graver and the gun in your lap.  I realize it can be nerve wracking because you are constantly afraid of the graver skipping across the metal and into the wood.  However, once you master hand engraving, that fear diminishes.  That technique is especially useful for silver, which cuts easily.  Brass is a bit more finicky.  Steel and iron can also be hand engraved but deep lines usually require a hammer and chisel.  There are old engravings and wood block prints showing gunmakers carving and engraving with the gun in their lap.  I now do all the details in my wood carving holding the gun in my lap rather than securing it in a vise.

dave
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Offline James

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 04:19:13 AM »
With the curve of the hunter's star on the cheek-piece I thought it must be engraved after bent and inlaid, I'm not sure if it makes a difference if it is engraved and then bent. I understand the problem of working with the metal on the gun, just trying to put the ideas together. I'm told that the inlays are fitted and then everything sanded smooth, and this is a part of my confusion, can the engraved parts be sanded flush with the wood without messing things up?
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." P.Henry

Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 05:43:30 AM »
Talkingamoeba:   Yes you can finish dressing the stock after the engraving is done - infact I always remove the burs from my engraving with a block and very fine emory paper.  Also I like to blacken my graver cuts with gun bluing , then the fine emory brightens the top of the inlay while the cuts remain dark which gives greater definition.  That's how I do it. ;)  Hugh Toenjes
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greybeard

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 05:56:10 AM »
I guess it's a personal choice. I prefer to engrave off the gun as in patch boxes. they have holls already drilled and i screw the bits to a piece of cedar in the bench vice that swivels about 270 degrees.  Same with side plates. Any permanent inlays like cheek piece inlays etc . I do on the gun
 but sometimes I just about end up  standing on my head and don't LOL cause it ain't that funny.
      Cheers    Bob

Offline David Rase

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 05:54:32 PM »
I engrave as many of the pieces off the gun as I can.  I screw locks and side plates and any other flat pieces to wood blocks which I then clamp in a pedistal vice.  Pieces that are curved, like patchbox finals and panels get attached to wood blocks using a layer of bondo.  Small items or items that have been nailed to the stock get engraved on the gun.
DMR

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 08:11:43 PM »
Careful examination, under magnification will sometime show how a particular original rifle was done. You can occasionally see where the chisel cut accidently went just beyond the edge of the patchbox and nicked the wood.

Of course the absence of such "slips" does not prove that the box was engraved off the stock.

Gary
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Silhouette4570

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 11:11:29 PM »
At somewhere around eight hundred to a thousand dollars a rifle, the hobby gun maker, for the most part,  doesn't take on one rifle after another. So, as an occassional builder, time required to become proficient with hammer and chisel or push engraving isn't practical, that is unless this style of engraving is an interest and an end in itself.

However, when it comes to engaving on or off the stock, this style of hand engraving, to me, has the great advantage of enabling the builder to move around the stock with all parts installed and the stock stationary in a fixture. I don't have these skills, so it's no help to me. Although, having the freedom of movement around the work piece with everything smoothed and fitted is to me the ideal.

I had finished a Bedford style rifle and wanted to do some first time engraving. Using what I could learn from Meeks' book and some practice, my first attempt was not a total disaster, but was very very amaturish. I knew this was not going to work.  After a number of phone calls and internet searches, I bought an Ngraver, the least expensive of the powered engavers and priced within the reach of the hobbyist. It's an electric powered hand engraver with the power applied by a foot pedal. Powered gravers, electric or air, are supposed to shorten the mechanical skills of engraving from years to days. Granted, rudimentary, but with a some practice a person can do an acceptable job on a long rifle. It's faster than the other methods, too.

Everything comes with a trade-off. Now that I think I can do an acceptable job, I'm tied to the foot pedal, can't move around the stock. So, now it comes back to engraving off the stock, and how to get every thing to the finished state, remove them, hold them for engraving and replace them in the stock as nicely as they were when removed. The tinier the inlay, the more difficult in every respect. My Bedford had all the inlays permanently installed. I wanted to try to clean up the designs on the patchbox and side plate, which was all I had previously done, and to engave the other enlays. Having the stock in a vise that I could turn 360 degrees, I arranged the pedal for the attempt. The drawbacks to this arrangement and the greatly limited movement almost turned this into a disaster if I had not quit. No additional damage was done, but I could see this method is not practical, so did not attempt further engraving. I'm sure a palm control air powered engraver would solve this problem, but now we're talking thousands of dollars, way beyond the range of a hobbyist.

So for me, here's the bottom line. I really like my Engraver, foot pedal and all. My next project will be another Bedford, aside from being my favorite style, there's plenty of brass to engrave. Everything will be removable but finished on the rifle. All inlays and patchbox will be hot glued or screwed to a wood backing and placed in my engaver's vice in its finished state, for engraving. Things like sideplate, toeplate, and lockplate will be screwed to a wood backing in the vise. There's just no easy way.

One last thing. The Ngraver, (I have NO financial interest in this thing.) although three to four time less expensive than the air powered systems is still a substantial outlay. But when you learn of all the other things you can do with any of these systems, engraving can become an interest and an end in itself. I don't build rifles every day, but I engrave on something almost that often, it's fun. And with this practice I might be a little better at it on my next Bedford.

Scrimshaw is next.

Jack

Offline James

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 11:37:13 PM »
The tools I have are Ramelson gravers. I bought them from a Fine Tool Journal auction. Many more sizes than are available from the gun builders supply places so probably a bunch I don't need, but they are what I have to work with. I don't know if these are the type steel that I need to temper. I have Meek's book and it looks like I need to shape the gravers as he shows.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." P.Henry

MarkEngraver

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 01:10:50 AM »
Hands down ,engraving the various parts off the gun is easier. You mount them onto holding jigs of some sort, boards, bondo, pitch pots etc.  Now you can come at it from all angles without interference from the stock and without all the contortions "greybeard" alluded to.
Depending on how deep you've cut them ,you can still sand/polish them to a point. If the lines get too thin you'll end up having to do some touch up cutting.
I prefer to make everything removable, do all sanding/polishing to "finished gun in the white", disassemble everything, engrave, stain,brown,blue or what have you then reassemble.
Yeah, you might have some fidgeting around to do most likely but they never fail to go back together for me the way they came apart.

Mark

Offline JTR

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 01:15:13 AM »
Mr. Amoeba,
The gravers shouldn't need any type of tempering before use, or at least I have never seen any that do.
If you have a bunch of different sizes and shapes, set all of them aside, except a square graver. Shape and sharpen this graver as to Meeks instructions, or use a GRS sharpening tool, or the Lindsay system.
Sharpening the tool Correctly is probably the one most important aspect for a biginner to master!
Practice with this square graver until you are comfortable enough to try it on a gun. Even after you are fairly accomplished, the square graver is all you'll need for about 98% of your work.
Also, along with Meeks book, have you visited any of the engraving web-sites?
John  
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Offline bama

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 03:36:32 AM »
An inlay can be engraved and then bent but you need to be very proficient at this for it to work. I have seen the guys that make bracelets engrave them flat and then bend them and the look great. Then again they are not fitting these into a stock. I have determind that the next curved cheek inlays that I do will be engraved off the rifle and then fit to the stock. This may be a nightmare but I am going to try it.

I took a class at WKU and Gary gave a few talks about this subject. He presented many pictures that gave evidence that many patch boxes were indeed engraved on the gun. From and engraving stand point I think it is easier to engrave off the gun but from an historical stand point it is probably not the thing to do. 
Jim Parker

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Offline James

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 12:07:32 PM »
Which size square graver do you think I should be using for patch-box and hunter's star? Is there another type that would work better for the shading?
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." P.Henry

keweenaw

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 04:58:03 PM »
Some old masters, like Schreyer, nailed on the side plates for their patch boxes.  Those were probably engraved on the gun.  Indeed, Schreyer is one of those makers where you can see overruns into the wood from the engraving even on the patch box finials which could have been removed.   As for that hunter's star, it's going to look best when it's exactly at the wood surface on that inside curve of the cheek piece.  It would only be with extreme difficulty that you could engrave it flat, curve it, fit and inlet it into the stock to exactly the correct depth without marking up your finished surface.   Fit that sucker to the stock, pop it out and then engrave it.  Actually since most of the engraving lines on those stars are straight it won't be hard to engrave it on the stock.  Since the square graver is sharpened to an absolutely sharp vee on the cutting corner, only one size is needed, shading lines are just lighter cuts.

Tom

Offline JTR

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 05:07:06 PM »
 On the link below, scroll down to the square graver. I use these, or something similar to these. Keep in mind that I hand engrave, and don't use a hammer.
If you want to use a hammer, you'll need a tool longer than these shown below and a bit heftier, although you'll still want to grind a small cutting tip.
I generally start with the one that is .079" square, then taper the point down to a smaller size,,, say .050" or so, or even smaller. The smaller size just makes it easier to see where the point is going, and has less 'Face' to grind when re-sharpening.
 
You can easily use the same square graver for both the initial engraving design and the shading. The only difference between engraving the design and cutting the shading is a matter of how much metal you remove. With this 90 degree point, a deeper cut will obviously be a wider cut, thus bolder, and a shallow cut will be narrower and much finer.

"Square' gravers can be made with points ranging from about 75 degrees, to about 110 degrees, but a 90 degree is a good place to start, and is easy to sharpen.

http://www.grstools.com/gravers-burs-and-more/hss/hss-gravers.html

John
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Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2011, 05:49:45 PM »
I agree it's lots easier to engrave parts off the gun.  Looking at pictures of old American made guns, most inlays are held in place by obvious raised tacks or nails, many of them through engraved areas of the inlays.  It looks as though these were engraved off the gun and then tacked on.

Thom

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2011, 01:28:28 AM »
It seems like sometimes with a complicated patchbox finial, that engraving it in it's mortise would help to set it in the channel. That's more of a question than a statement. I have only engraved three rifles and engraving is not fun yet.

I built a Beyer with the pelican patchbox, the thin part of the finial was rather sloppy in the mortice. I was told I could have engraved it in the mortice.

Thom

Offline bama

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2011, 02:24:46 AM »
It is where the inlay or patch box has lines that you can tell were cotinous cuts and then interupted by a nail or screw hole that you can tell it was engraved off the arm. Look and you will see cases of this.
Jim Parker

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2011, 04:12:39 AM »
I like to engrave everything off the gun I possibly can.

An exception is a thin patchbox which may NEVER go back into place once taken out.

Tom
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Re: Engraving- on or off the gun?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2011, 07:15:35 AM »
That was my thought Tom, I would rather ingrave on my vice, but sometimes it may make more sense to engrave on the stock.

Thom