percusion longrifle with Kuntz style box

[Jim Kibler]

It seems while typing a response to the thread on this rifle, iit became restricted for some reason.  Here is my response regarding the patchbox engraving spilling onto the butplate:

Here is a possibility....  The box was initially cut out to a pattern which would fit to a flatter butplate.  When fitting to the butplate with more curve, the upper sideplate would require substantial shortening.  In order to carry the engraving pattern, it was necessary to cheat over into the butplate edge.  Perhaps the box and sideplate were reused from an earlier gun?  

[JTR]

I suspect that you're right on the re-use.
John

[Majorjoel]

I wonder what became of the thread?? I was looking through my books and see that some of John Youngs work reflected similar styles to Kuntz. Young worked up into the late percussion era as well. He was often labeled as an engraver who built a few rifles.

[Jim Kibler]

Can't imagine that butplate being correct for a Kuntz.  Whether the box was re-used or not, I think there is a strong chance the box pattern was originally established for a flatter butplate.  Using this pattern with the later highly curved butplate caused difficulties with the upper sideplate design fitting.

[Shreckmeister]

Clearly, this is a later gun.  The lock is original percussion.  My assumption is that they continued to use the same patchbox template that was their
signature and made it fit with the later curved butt.  Doesn't mean the
work was not done by Kuntz shop.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

I certainly can't confidently tell you which is the right answer to your question but at least 2 answer, besides "its right" are very possible:
1. The "Kunz" stock was broken beyond repair or usable state.
2. Some one wanted someone else to believe it was a "Kunz" and pay accordingly.
3 A gunsmith happened upon these parts and added them to this gun and chose to make the fit and complete the engraving design.

With as much confidence , it is unlikely that Kunz made this gun. Also the trigger guard should "match."
Hurricane

[Shreckmeister]

I can see the possibility that the stock was broken prior to 1900 and
replaced using the parts.  I think the "faking" of rifles for enhanced value
is a much more recent phenomenon and not likely.  As old as this stock
is, people were not collecting guns during the time this was stocked
and I can't buy into that possibility.  The stock architecture is not that
different from other Kuntz work that it could not be a later gun.  The
trigger guard looks like other Kuntz I've seen.

[Bob Smalser]

You can call your local forestry department and ask if anyone is doing dendrochronology or spectroscopic dating of wood.

A good close-up photo of the end grain beneath the buttplate and a small sliver from same can probably determine whether the maple was harvested during the various Kuntz lifetimes.

Or you can send the sample to Milan where they'll do the spectroscopy for a hundred Euros.

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/wag/2002/WAG_02_matthaes.pdf

http://www.mobiliantichiautenticita.com/MobiliInglese.htm

But as it now looks like there were at least five (not two or three) Kuntz gunmakers (four probably trained by Peter Newhard and one by Jacob Kuntz) building or repairing rifles from ca 1785 to after 1900, you may end up with the same questions you began with.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

There are many others observing this discussion and debate with far greater expertise...please join in. Its an important teaching and learning moment for all.
HUrricane