Longrifles made as "presentation" pieces.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

I wonder if anyone has knowledge related to the possibility that a master gunsmith  may have made a gun, perhaps as a gift for someone, and placed the future owners name on the barrel flat. Certainly we have two incidences of the owners names ( at least not the gunmaker"s name) on Schreckengost guns presented to this forum ( see Museum exhibit).
Is anyone aware of other gunsmiths doing the same or of guns unquestionably made by one gunsmith with someone else's name on the barrel flat ( except with a replaced or reused barrel)??
Hurricane

[WElliott]

That certainly happened in the South.  For example, I know of a rifle with the name "F H Heard" on a silver plate on the top barrel flat.  FitzHugh Heard was a wealthy Georgia planter and the rifle was actually made by the master gunsmith Wiley G. Higgins, who very rarely put his own name on rifles. In fact, the one extant rifle which was signed by Higgins was signed on the patchbox.  Of course, Higgins' "signature" characteristics scream from every piece he made, and he did not need to sign his name for his work to be known by his customers.  Higgins was also known to put his customer's name in a gold cartouche on the lockplate. 

[WElliott]

 . . . and other Southern makers (Bull and Bean for example) sometimes put both their name and the customer's name on the top flat.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Per Dr. Whisker in personal communication:

"Samuel Spangler of Somerset Co, PA, did this with great regularity.
A gun with my g-g-g-grandfather's name is an example, Wendell
and in the Merrill Lindsay color book, The KY Rifle, there is another with a deer's head
made by Spangler for Ruslin/ Russily. The latter was a sheep farmer whose family I followed by baptisms at St Thomas Apostle Catholic Church in Bedford and there is a double barrel rifle in my Bedford Co book made for same man by Spangler. Apparently Spangler didn't do that after he moved to WI and made plain ugly generic rifles Spangler signed the locks on the guns with Ruslin on barrel

There has been much discussion about a gun signed Peter M Wedell, a wealthy merchant
[shown in "KRA red book" The KY RIFLE:A True American Heritage] many attribute it to Teaff or another quality OH maker, which is possible. However, I found a 1912 family genealogy which stated that Wedell had been trained as a gunsmith ,came from Westmoreland Co, PA, into KY, on to Ohio

[flintriflesmith]

John Bivins found a 19th-century NC store record where the order for rifles to sell in the store said, "leave the silver plate on the barrel plain [or blank--can't remember the exact wording] so the owner's name can be engraved there."

John talked about this in some of the NMLRA Seminars at Western Kentucky. I remember that, in addition to the basic info, this order irritated John because the store in Carolina was ordering rifles from Virginia!

Gary

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

I raised this question related to two guns:

a. The barrel signed John Stoudenour gun which exists as a single known gun signed by John and yet has all the artistic merit of his more recognized brother, Jacob. Could Jacob have made the gun for his brother John???

B. The Nathaniel Rowe barrel signed gun so similar to a classic  John Armstrong. This is much more creditable as it is known that Rowe apprenticed with Armstrong and there are other fine known guns signed by him. Yet, the similarity of the presented gun, in this context, stirs one thoughts and challenges conventional wisdom re :barrel signatures.

Hurricane

[Shreckmeister]

William Shreckengost made guns with the following signatures on the barrel
John McCown
Daniel Snyder
William Shreckengost for James McClellan Troup
J. H. Alison (in block stamp)
Lincoln Shreckengost (his son)
and a sixth on that I can't recall, but have written down in my file.

[mbriggs]

I have seen and owned several Jamestown North Carolina Longrifles with the owners name engraved on a silver plate of the barrel.  These ranged from halfstock percussion rifles to one fullstock, flintlock patchbox longrifle.

Michael

[G-Man]

Here are a few more - not sure if any of these were "presentation pieces or not but hte owner's names are on them.

The Jacob Young rifle for William Wade Woodfork has Woodfork's name on the sideplate.

The Jacob Young rifle for William Whitley has Whitley's initials on a cheek inlay.

As Wayne mentioned, several Bull rifles have the owner's name on silver plates in the barrel.

The Thomas Simpson "Mansker rifle" has "G Mansker" on the patchbox lid.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

I've seen an Atkinson rifle that has his name and the words "warrented for" and the name of the owner.

[JTR]

I have a Nicolas Hawk rifle with the name PG Ludlow on the brass Hawk style name plate.

John

[rlm]

I raised this question related to two guns:

a. The barrel signed John Stoudenour gun which exists as a single known gun signed by John and yet has all the artistic merit of his more recognized brother, Jacob. Could Jacob have made the gun for his brother John???

B. The Nathaniel Rowe barrel signed gun so similar to a classic  John Armstrong. This is much more creditable as it is known that Rowe apprenticed with Armstrong and there are other fine known guns signed by him. Yet, the similarity of the presented gun, in this context, stirs one thoughts and challenges conventional wisdom re :barrel signatures.

Hurricane

[rlm]

I don't post often and it shows. However, Hurricane to even insinuate that John Armstrong made this rifle for Rowe is ridiculous. The Old man was probably standing over his shoulder when Row made this rifle I'm quite sure. But Rowe made the rifle. It is signed twice by him. The Barrel and the lock plate. Further if you study this rifle beside an Armstromg there are definitely two different hands displayed.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

RLM: Thank you for your response.  No insult intended. I try to keep an open mind to any question as much of what we believe we know is speculation and that we which we are sure we know has often been proven wrong at a later time.

[rlm]

Hurricane,No offence taken, but lets be thoughtful before we question the obvious.
There once was an advanced collector of Kentuckies who acquired an Emmitsburg Rifle that soooo much looked like an Armstrong, but it was signed Wickham and Matthews. This guy was absolutely convinced that the gun was made by Armstrong.  So much so that he had the brass W&M signature plate removed from the barrel. Shortly there after it came to light that Marine Tyler Wickham was an early 19th century apprentice to Armstrong. True story. My point in all of this is I feel that Armstrong was a demanding and particular Master. Rifles of his shop were expected to look a particular way. His way. Once the apprentice was out on his own I think that pattern stuck at least for a while. What else did he know? I think we always have to give the greatest consideration first to what is most likely. The vast majority of signatures on rifle barrels are the signature of the gumsmith. If that name is unfamiliar then start looking for that gunsmith. There were appearently a few gunsmiths who liked putting the owners name on the barrel. Armstrong wasn't one of them.   

[mr. no gold]

I had the great pleasure of seeing and handling the above mentioned Wickham and Matthews rifle about two weeks ago. It would be no insult to Armstong to attribute that rifle to him. As a matter of fact, it is a case of the disciple exceeding the master in applying himself. The W&M gun is much superior to the Armstrong's I have seen, in my opinon. A pity that there are not more of them. His engraving was almost on a par with Fleeger's, to wit, the eagle on the cheekrest, and elsewhere.
Back to the point originally raised: I own a pretty little Ohio rifle covered in German silver that has the name 'J. Moyer, 1854' engraved on a brass plate set into the barrel and the lid of the patch box carries the name; 'Washington Keiser.' The gun seems to be scaled down a bit and may have been a gift, or a presentation item, as it was probably expensive and the best that the gunsmith could produce. The furniture is also German Silver. I haven't done the requisite research on 'Keiser' yet, but will soon. There is another Moyer rifle very similar, a twin almost, and it too has a name on the lid, but it is not discernible in the very bad photo I have. This gun is a fllntlock while the one I have is percussion. Names on patch box lids or elsewhere on rifles is somewhat uncommon. Initials seem to prevail in most instances. Nuff for now.
Best-Dick

[mr. no gold]

PS It was Joe Kindig who pronounced the W & M rifle to probably be an Armstrong as 'there was no such animal as Wickham and Matthews', whereupon Carl went home and filed off the offending name from the silver plate on the top flat. And, as I observed, it is still blank.

[oakridge]

I have an 1850's half-stock with the maker's name on both barrel and lock, that has the owners name engraved on the cap box lid. However, owner's names on rifles don't necessarily indicate "presentation" pieces.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

I want to thank everyone for their comments. Certainly we all believe that a barrel signature, by far represents the gunsmith. Examples exist where it is clear that the barrel signature is the name of the owner, at least, when the gun was made by specific makers who are known to have done so. Also names elsewhere on the gun can be maker, an owner, or both. Names on locks are almost certainly the name of the lock maker.

[Jim Kibler]

PS It was Joe Kindig who pronounced the W & M rifle to probably be an Armstrong as 'there was no such animal as Wickham and Matthews', whereupon Carl went home and filed off the offending name from the silver plate on the top flat. And, as I observed, it is still blank.

How could a sane person do such a thing?  I know worse has been done to the longrifle as well.  Do we get so caught up in our own ideas and thoughts that we can rationalize anything?  Scary.

[Majorjoel]

They are rare birds, but there are a few truley "Presentation" longrifles out there. At last summers CLA show in Lexington I spent a good bit of time in the antique KRA exhibit room. On one of the tables there I ran across a silver furnished halfstock rifle with a back action lock in absolutly mint condition. My memory is very slow to remember all of the details but the barrel was signed H. Lechler. The silver patchbox was of the key hole type with many piercings and the engraving of the finest hand. The patchbox lid had a long inscription with the name of someone in memorial to. Very fine script lettering with much detail to dates and this persons life in memorium. The rifle had that top of the line Philidelphia style to it. I failed to strike a bargain with it's owner and have not been able to forget about it since.

[Shreckmeister]

  I am convinced that the William Shreckengost made rifle that is signed
John McCown on the barrel was a presentation piece made for Major General John Porter McCown.  The gun represents  the finest example of
inlaying and engraving know to exist on a Shreckengost rifle.  In the
1850 and 1860 census, there were no John McCown's living in Pennsylvania where the rifle was made, all 9 McCown's in those census
were farmers, hatters and laborers.  Shreckengost had a neighbor in
the same town named J. McCowan, but the spelling is different and
there are no other records of him other than a map showing his location.
Someone of the means to acquire a rifle such as this would likely show
up in the Armstrong Cty histories as having some significance.
  Meanwhile during the 1850s when the rifle as  made General McCown was a Captain in the
US Army stationed at Fort Niagara, training and escorting troops for
fighting the Seminoles in FL.  This path would take him straight through
Shreckengost's area. 
    The rifle is 45 caliber while by far the majority of his work was squirrel
calibers.  Which also lends itself to a military man. 
    Whether the gun was made for General McCown or some other man,
the gun was definitely a presentation piece.  I'm told that gifts of fine
rifles were not uncommon during those days.