Interesting original locks

[keweenaw]

Hermann Historica has their current catalog on line.

http://www.hermann-historica.com/

Lot number 54 in the flintlock section or the Arms catalog is a great over and under gun.  when you look at the left lock pan placement and lock nail location you realize that it's actually got to be a back action lock.  I would love to see the inside of those locks.

Tom

[Stophel]

I MAY have an image somewhere showing the inside of one of these types of locks.  If I can remember, I'll look when I get home.

[Jim Kibler]

Based on the pan placement and visible screw holes,  I suspect it's similar to the back action spring design shown in the prints by Heinrich Raab.  For anyone that has "Master French Gunsmiths Designs" by Grancsay, this can be found on page 96.  it seems likely the tumbler, sear, bridle ,and spring configurations are similar.  In this design the back action spring actually extends beyond the plate and hooks in under the stock wood.  I think the sear spring on the lock in question is a straight spring with the attachment at the tip of the lock rather than a bent design as shown in the Raab print.

[Stophel]

I found the picture, and it was done about how I remembered it.  I'll scan it and put it up as soon as I can.

The mainspring is anchored just behind the sear and it loops up and around the sear and sear spring, and the tumbler hook is on the back of the tumbler.  The spring bears upwards, pushing the tumbler/cock up, rather than pulling it down, as normal.

[Stophel]

Here we go:


There ain't no room for play there, is there?   

I would imagine that the HH gun has a lock made rather similar to this one.  

[Lucky R A]

Chris,  The inside photo is of an entirely different lock than the outside photo.  Anyhow, that arrangement sure eliminates the front lock bolt interfearing with the ram rod channel, 

[Stophel]

Chris,  The inside photo is of an entirely different lock than the outside photo.  Anyhow, that arrangement sure eliminates the front lock bolt interfearing with the ram rod channel,  

That's because the outside photo is of the right lock, and the inside photo is of the left lock.  

And due to the low position of the pan, the left side frizzen spring is mounted with a screw (you can see the head right near the center of the lockplate), and the spring goes up towards the top of the plate, then V's down and swoops around underneath the pan, extending forward.

[Jim Kibler]

Yes, that is the basic set-up.  It's also used on swivel breech designs.  This can be seen in the Simonin prints as well.  I do think the gun in question is set up a little differently, however.  The plate coverage to the rear of the cock is significantly smaller in the HH lock.  By looking at the visible screw holes, I don't believe the entire mainspring can be covered by the plate.  This is why I referenced the Heinrich Raab print.  I will post a scan of this.  As I mentioned I believe the spring extends beyond the plate to the towards the butplate.  This is the design shown by Raab.  With such a set-up an undercut is created  in the stock and the protruding mainspring hooks underneath it.  If you look a the visible screws, it seems the one directly behind the cock must be the sear pivot screw, the next seems to be the mainspring anchor screw and the one at the tip would likely be the sear spring screw.  I suspect a straight sear spring was used rather than a bent one.  Considering the placement of the screws, the size of the plate and the size of a mainspring, I question it can be covered by the plate.   Now I could be all wrong, but this is how it seems to me.  Now all we need is someone to buy it and show us what it really is!

[tallbear]

Great pics Chris Thanks

Mitch

[keweenaw]

Since the reserve price is $5346 plus commission this is beyond my play money limit but a great bargain compared to early American stuff.  On the other hand if I was in German and could go to that auction I'm sure I would find several pieces I could afford and would enjoy having.

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

Here are a couple design prints related to the lock in question.  

First, a print from the Thuraine et Le Hollandois series showing the the standard back action configuration used on locks of this type.  Thuraine et Le Hollandois prints were originally published in the 1650's.



Next, the print from Heinrich Raab I previously mentioned.  I believe the mainspring configuration on the lock in question is similar to this design shown.  I believe the lock being discussed has a straight sear spring rather than a V-design.  If you would like, take the time to match up the screw holes on the lock in question and see if you come to the same conclusion regarding the design.  Ignore all the complicated mechanism forward of the tumbler shown by Raab.  It doesn't apply in this case.  Sorry about the fuzzy scan quality.  Hope you can still see what matters well enough.

[keweenaw]

Jim,

I would be inclined to interpret the three screws/pins in the german locks as sear screw, mainspring attachment screw and mainspring positioning pin with the sear spring screw being blind.   If you look carefully the front two are textured on the ends and are almost certainly screws while the one at the tail of the lock is smooth on the end (both locks) which makes me think it's the pin on the mainspring. Thanks for posting the scans.  Inletting that Raab lock would be a real chore. 

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

Hey Tom,

You may be right about the last screw being the mainspring pin, but after looking at the photos of both locks, I'm not sure.  The size seems to be identical to the screws and the ends are radiused just like the screws.  It seems the size of the last screw is a little big for a mainspring pin.  Also, I think it is more common for the pin to be flat rather than being radiused like a screw.  This is just a pure guess, though.  You might very well be correct. 

Jim

[Stophel]

I don't see how the Raab lock could even work!

How would you get the thing in the stock?  The mainspring would have to be stepped out or splayed out way away from the lockplate in order to get it hooked in under the wood, and the wood would still have to be PAPER thin.

The screw positions are pretty much the same as with the wrap-around mainspring anyway...

[Jim Kibler]

With a profile to the spring that matched the wrist contour I don't see what the Raab design wouldn't work.  The Herman Historica, might be a simple back action design, but I'm having trouble imagining the mainspring fitting within the plate.  Who knows.