Author Topic: The Golden Mean (Read 63002 times)

famouseagle · « **Reply #100 on:** October 29, 2008, 03:25:45 AM »

There are some people, whether it is in the sphere of gunbuilding or in unrelated areas of design, who inherently understand form and proportion. There are others who spend a lifetime developing (or trying to develop) those skills.

There are others who think that a simple mathematical formula is all that's needed.

One can "reproduce" the Mona Lisa with paint by numbers - but it's not gonna look the same.

Michael · « **Reply #101 on:** October 29, 2008, 02:04:25 PM »

I have a set of GM dividers but I usually use them as an afterthought if at all. I think if you have the 'gift' your eye will tell you what is right. Can your eyes be trained to see the GM? Is it something that develops with experience? Just a thought.

Michael

jerrywh · « **Reply #102 on:** October 29, 2008, 06:02:55 PM »

Does the golden mean represent the only correct proportion? If the name golden mean is an indication it is an average proportion and not an exact proportion.

northmn · « **Reply #103 on:** October 29, 2008, 07:10:18 PM »

Mathematically the GM was developed by measuring proportions of various objects and body parts that looked to be an ideal proportion. Kind of like De Vinchis development of perspective where all lines go to a point on a horizon. Naturally gifted artists, like a cousin of mine, could draw what they saw, literally and had no mathematical training or artistic training. When you talk of proportion you are also talking about drawing animals, people, etc that have heads that look proportional to their bodies, legs of proper length and so forth. The GM fits some of these applications and does not others. Some use a compass to draw circles. Mechanical layouts utilize these mathematical crutches and permit non artistic people like me to lay out a object. Naturally gifted people often have an ability to come very close without the layout. It was said that a Japanese artist practiced drawing circles until he could freehand one wihtin a few hundreths of an inch. I use a compass.

DP

JTR · « **Reply #104 on:** October 29, 2008, 08:11:51 PM »

Quote from: TOF on October 29, 2008, 12:33:24 AM

Quote
Once he had that, the nose of the comb falls at Mean proportion, or 3 to 4.854 from that pull spot to the end of the barrel.

So, explain a Bedford.

Easy! Not all rifles were made to conform to the GM.
Maybe none of them were.
I see the GM as being a tool, not a hard and fast rule.
As mentioned several times already, artistically inclined people seem to just be born with pleasing perspective. Other people just don’t have it. For those that don’t have it, the GM can help with the initial pleasing arrangement of rifle stock parts, drawing a design, or taking a picture.
I don’t take it to mean that the main subject of a picture Must be at an exact position, just close to that position, then using your own artistic eye for the final placement.
Same as with a rifle, it doesn’t have to be followed exactly and religiously, but will simple give you a good starting place that your own individual idea of perfection can improve upon.
So to say a Bedford might or might not adhere to the GM is meaningless, as obviously not all rifles do. Obviously the Bedford makers thought their guns looked fine just as they made them.
Think of the GM as a tool, and not an absolute.
John

t.caster · « **Reply #105 on:** October 29, 2008, 10:18:12 PM »

Quote from: northmn on October 29, 2008, 07:10:18 PM

Naturally gifted people often have an ability to come very close without the layout. It was said that a Japanese artist practiced drawing circles until he could freehand one wihtin a few hundreths of an inch. I use a compass.

DP

Ms. Betty Butterface, My HS Geometry teacher could draw nearly perfect freehand circles on the chalkboard time & time again. When asked how she did it, she said "it's simple: keep a constant radius!"

Tim Crosby · « **Reply #106 on:** October 30, 2008, 02:10:04 AM »

With over 1600 views and more than 100 replies it looks like at least the GM gets the Gold for the most viewed and replied to post on the new board.

Tim C.

Randy Hedden · « **Reply #107 on:** October 30, 2008, 02:25:36 AM »

Quote from: Tim Crosby on October 30, 2008, 02:10:04 AM

With over 1600 views and more than 100 replies it looks like at least the GM gets the Gold for the most viewed and replied to post on the new board.

Tim C.

Yeah, Tim,

Its time for someone to give the death blow to this already beaten to death horse.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

Stophel · « **Reply #108 on:** October 30, 2008, 02:53:48 AM »

Poor Horatio...

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #109 on:** October 30, 2008, 04:12:45 AM »

If you can't stand it, stop reading.

Otherwise, have a good time. This is the hottest post for a loooong time. Always is.

woodsrunner · « **Reply #110 on:** October 30, 2008, 04:32:02 AM »

There are other more modern firearms that have universal, almost mystical appeal to most people. The Winchester Model 94 and Der Mauser Karabiner 98k come to mind immediately. I wonder if anyone knowledgable of making GM measurements has ever measured these pieces against the principles of the GM? Susie? Anyone?

Ken G · « **Reply #111 on:** October 30, 2008, 04:54:58 AM »

I think this is healthy discussion whether you believe anyone used it or not. I made the below dividers just to check how often it works out. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't but it is fun to look. Personally I trust my eye more than math or dividers.
Ken

rich pierce · « **Reply #112 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:21:22 AM »

That blacksmith guy did a nice job with the tin snips on that there patchbox.

Nice dividers. Did you design them? Do the 3 points always fall on a line? I'd like to try to make a set for fun. What's the range (longest extension)?

woodsrunner · « **Reply #113 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:47:50 AM »

rich,

I bet Susie could help you with a set of plans for the dividers. She offered to help me build a set, but I'm not a rifle builder...I tangle up crowbars and break anvils!

Ken G · « **Reply #114 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:58:39 AM »

Rich,
I ran across the plans on the internet and like you thought I would make a set up. They are sort of a novelty / curio item to me.
Here's the weblink. They are about 1/2 down the page. You could make them any size you want.

http://goldennumber.net/goldgrid.htm

Dave B · « **Reply #115 on:** October 30, 2008, 06:05:42 AM »

Ken,
I like those you have there. No fuss no muss, no having to flip end for end and if your friction screw is loose you get those measurments that Jerry gets.... always just alittle off....sometimes.

Are they made from brass or is it the light that makes it look like it?

Ken G · « **Reply #116 on:** October 30, 2008, 06:20:37 AM »

Dave, they are made from brass. I have seen of those flip and use the opposite side dividers. I'm sure they work well and I may make some one day. I think a couple of vendors sell them much cheaper than the time to make them. I just thought these were neat.
They are not a precision measuring instrument and yes, they are a little off.

but they are something within the means of just about any of the old gunsmiths.
Cheers,
Ken

Dave B · « **Reply #117 on:** October 30, 2008, 07:50:57 AM »

When I went back to the KRA meeting one of the tables had a collection of tools that had come from a family who GGranddaddy was a gunsmith and they were selling the whole shooting match for a lump sum of $5000. It was fun digging through the box. You wonder when they passed on and every thing was boxed up for the inventory what was just thrown into the box labled "mic. gunsmithing tools". My favorite was the hack saw just like Herscle uses in the building a Kentucky rifle video. Hand forged with a scrolled rear blade retainer.
Thanks again for the link to the site I will have to whip one of those up for the bench.

rich pierce · « **Reply #118 on:** October 30, 2008, 03:26:10 PM »

Thanks, Ken, maybe I'll make some using old hacksaw blades. One of the rivet holes is already there.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #119 on:** October 30, 2008, 04:53:12 PM »

What happens to the proportions when you put the dividers on the lower left corner of the PB cover? It don't proportion no more. my point being is that by positioning the calipers around, you can get them to align somewhere, and then you can announce that the gun was made using the Golden Mean.

Ken, I do think that is the best design so far I've seen for proportioning calipers. They are direct, you don't need to keep turning them over to check your measurements.

JTR · « **Reply #120 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:51:07 PM »

Of course it won’t fit everywhere no matter where you put it.
The only thing I can think of where it would fit anyplace, would be a straight line, and the diameter of a circle.

And hey, that’s a neat ol gun you chose to illustrate Ken!
Obviously made by someone without a lot of artistic skill, yet that didn’t slow him down and he tried to incorporate all the bells and whistles of finer rifles! Beaver tails on the lock/side plate areas, wrist carving, carved behind the cheek piece, etc.
Evidently it originally it had a wood box cover before the backwoods one on it now.

And for sure this ol boy had never ever heard of the GM, cause if you put the point of the divider on the center end of the PB door, it’ll be at least a good solid 1/16” outta whack!

John

Leatherbelly · « **Reply #121 on:** November 02, 2008, 11:49:24 PM »

JMHO, I think the Golden Mean is built into the artists eye. A good artist sees the flow and balance of things.I think it applies to all art forms.( just a laymans point of view.)

blunderbuss · « **Reply #122 on:** April 11, 2011, 04:17:02 AM »

Neat topic I Googled it and found alot about it Noah's ark was built on that principle,the ark of the covenant is the same, basically a miniature Noah's ark so it's been around awhile. The set of books that handle that is "Historical arms making technology"

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Author Topic: The Golden Mean (Read 63002 times)

famouseagle

Michael

northmn

Leatherbelly

blunderbuss