Need some help with this one

[wildcatter]

Rifle was purchased in New Bern NC.  The family it was acuired from has documentation and pictures going back 150 years.  After some debate, several people concluded it is not of southern origin.  I feel it is possibly a re-stock, from mid 1800's as the lock is made by Longstreth and Boldin from Philadelphia.  Ultimately who knows, but comments are needed and welcomed.  It isn't signed.  The side hinged patchbox is unusual.  I would assume it was originally with the gun but could have been added at a later date.

[Fullstock longrifle]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount this as not being a Southern rifle, it sure has that feel to me.  There are others here that have more knowledge of Southern guns than I do, but it doesn't look like a Pennsylvania or Maryland made rifle.  I see where it apparently had a lug on the trigger guard for a sling swivel, does it have a hole on the fore arm for the front swivel?

FK

[Dennis Glazener]

Rifle was purchased in New Bern NC.  The family it was acuired from has documentation and pictures going back 150 years.  After some debate, several people concluded it is not of southern origin.  I feel it is possibly a re-stock, from mid 1800's as the lock is made by Longstreth and Boldin from Philadelphia.  Ultimately who knows, but comments are needed and welcomed.  It isn't signed.  The side hinged patchbox is unusual.  I would assume it was originally with the gun but could have been added at a later date.

Looks NC to me but maybe Michael Briggs will weigh in with his thoughts.

I would not think a Philadelphia lock would rule out it being southern. Many kegs of locks were shipped from Philadelphia down the great wagon road.
Dennis

[Eric Kettenburg]

Looks like restocked parts off an upper Susquehanna gun.  The copper rivet holding the two pieces of the entry pipe together is a particularly common upper Susq. characteristic. 

[Fullstock longrifle]

I also wondered about the rivet in the tail of the rear pipe.  I haven't owned an Upper Susquehanna rifle in a while, but don't they usually have two rivets in the tail of the pipe?  Also, I don't remember seeing a side opening box on a rifle from that school.  Now that I've said that, a dozen pictures of them will be posted.  

FK

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes, the side opener does seem atypical but the actual design, those inlays and the pipe rivet all seem to point to the area between north of the blue mtn. and "up the river."  Frankly, no pun intended, all I've ever seen were single-rivet pipes.  Have not seen two but certainly would not discount them if you say you've seen them!

[wildcatter]

Michael Briggs already responded to this rifle in another thread on side hinged patchboxes.  He mentioned it didn't look like any NC rifle he had ever seen.  I think it is a re-stock and that could have been done in NC.  Anyway it is an interesting gun. Hopefully someone will show some more side hinged boxes to look at.  The silver star mounts on the forestock are also punched on the barrel flats around the two sights.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Michael Briggs would surely be the one to know if this is a Carolina gun or not.

[Loudy]

Wildcatter,

Like Eric, I see a lot of Upper Susquehanna influence in your rifle.  It's easier to point out features that are not commonly seen on guns from that area.  The fact that it's not stocked in maple is unusual.  The wood appears to be walnut.  Up-the-river longrifles in walnut are not unheard... just not common.  The side opening patch-box is rarely seen on guns from the Union / Snyder County, PA area.  The patch-box release button through the toeplate is also uncommon on guns from this area.  Other than these features, this gun looks like many others I've seen from the Upper Susquehanna school.  I'm curious what others have seen about this gun that makes them think it is a restock?  I like the sideplate for the lockbolt. To me it looks like a comet shooting over the moon inlay.  The top ramrod pipe looks longer than the other pipe (?).  Was it possibly replaced?  Does the inlay under the cheekrest include a touch-hole pick holder?  If so, this could indicate that the gun was originally flintlock.  Does the lock mortise appear to have been made for the lock that is currently on the gun?  Thanks for posting the photos.  Mark   

[Don Getz]

Kind of a strange gun.   That single rivet in the entry pipe is most common on upper susquehanna guns, don't think I have ever
seen one with two.   If that gun had turned up in Pennsylvania it would have been termed a "southern gun"....mainly because
it couldn't be placed properly into one of the known schools.    It does look like a re-stock, but from where....I don't know.....Don

[JCKelly]

There is an extra, unused, hole in the tang.
Could that not imply that the tang was originally longer & had been cut down, as in at the time when the rifle might have been restocked (somewhere)?

[Shreckmeister]

Where were side opening patchboxes most commonly made?

[dannybb55]

Rifle was purchased in New Bern NC.  The family it was acuired from has documentation and pictures going back 150 years.  After some debate, several people concluded it is not of southern origin.  I feel it is possibly a re-stock, from mid 1800's as the lock is made by Longstreth and Boldin from Philadelphia.  Ultimately who knows, but comments are needed and welcomed.  It isn't signed.  The side hinged patchbox is unusual.  I would assume it was originally with the gun but could have been added at a later date.

Looks NC to me but maybe Michael Briggs will weigh in with his thoughts.

I would not think a Philadelphia lock would rule out it being southern. Many kegs of locks were shipped from Philadelphia down the great wagon road.
Dennis

Don't forget Newbern is a port city and just up the river from another, as well as on the way of the Post Road Hwy 17 and the Rail Road came through mighty early. A hive of activity even after the War of Yankee Aggression swept through in '62. Things kind off drift in from everywhere to a port. That is what makes the junk shops so much fun.
 Danny

[Spotz]

This looks like an Upper Susquehanna rifle that went south and ended up with some repairs at the back end, which include a modification to the original patch box, a new toe plate and a patchbox release on the toe plate as  compared to the butt stock.  It almost looks like a Specht rifle from Snyder County (at least the patchbox finial), but the inlay under the cheek piece looks more like Baum or Morrison.  I wouldn't be too fast to call it a restock . . . how wide are the barrel flats?  It is not uncommon to see a straight stock on a Specht with medium to heavy barrel.  Then again, the most famous walnut stock maker in the Upper Susquehanna is Fillman from Milton and he worked with or near Morrison in the same town, which may explain some style overlap.  Too bad they don't talk. 

[Don Getz]

Spotz...........how do you explain the strange continuation of the patchbox in the area between the ending of the lid and
the buttplate.   Looks like kind of an add-on to me.  While the finial may resemble a Specht , I sure never saw a side
opening one.   Still think it is a re-stock.   Also, take a closer look at the triggerguard.....kind of clunky, not filed down to a
delicate little thing nomally seen in rifles from this area.............Don

[chuck]

Just a thought- you might pull the pins on both the trigger guard and the rear pipe and check them for extra pin holes. Not sure how much trouble a  "restocker" would go to try to  hit the existing ones.

[wildcatter]

I think maybe someone restocked a Pennsylvania rifle somewhere in the south and then put his personal spin on it as he did it.  I think it is a neat gun with an interesting interpretation.  When a show gets near, I will bring it with me.  I was out of town for the Williamsburg show but I heard it was great Dennis.  Thanks for trying to keep it going here.  The only thing that is odd to me is the brass plate that is in-between the patch box lid and the butt plate.  The cheek rest has a pick holder, and the gun was a flintlock because I have the lock.  It doesn't even come close to fitting.  The gun also came with a horn and bag but the horn is in really rough shape.  Thanks for all the opinions and help. 

[Spotz]

Don:  If the stock is original and there was a serious break at the toe (although the breaks are usually just a corner), I can see taking the patchbox lid off, putting a big plate with screws over the back end of the patchbox and then shortening down the patchbox lid with a side opening mechanism.  Then it looks like they put a release up from the bottom and reworked an extended toe.  I think the patchbox is a modification.  I agree that it has some Upper Susquehanna features and I use the Specht reference loosely, here, but it could be an original with some modification or a homemade special with recycled parts.  I like the unusual and this fits the bill.

[Spotz]

A bit of a theory on my part but is there a toe break on this rifle...I can't tell from the pics.