Author Topic: Surplus Brown Besses  (Read 4385 times)

blunderbuss

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Surplus Brown Besses
« on: April 28, 2011, 01:06:32 AM »
Texas History had some of the same problems as did the American Revolution,IE Rifle vs musket , Indian fighting, in fact some of the worst in history.While one wasn't fighting Indans you could get into a row with the Mexican authorities over a dictatorial government.Sound familiar?
 Even though The dictator Santa Anna claimed to be the Napoleon of the west and styled his army after the French  he used surplus British  Brown Bess muskets.
  The civilians from the United States brought over percussion rifles,and or shotguns.Many were using percussion here long before 1836. However some were still armed with flintlocks ,we're locked in a debate as to how many percussion vs flintlocks there were. The flintlock supporters claim that flints were cheaper than caps and the people were poor so they must have kept their flintlocks longer. The further we look the more percussion's we find. I guess it's the same everywhere if your booty is on the line you use the best available.
I've heard it said that the Pilgrims were poor so they must have used only matchlocks,however in digs at old forts and cities in America they are finding wheelock spanners and Schnaphans parts pretty fancy weapons for poor Pilgrims.
  Lately we find three winged musket caps on the battle field at San Jacinto I sure would like to know which group had those.
 The Mexican army did use the Baker rifle.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 08:32:56 PM by blunderbuss »

Offline Glenn

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 01:29:28 PM »
When was the last dig conducted at San Jac?

Is anything going on there now?
Many of them cried; "Me no Alamo - Me no Goliad", and for most of them these were the last words they spoke.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 06:42:49 PM »
Texas History had some of the same problems as did the American Revolution,IE Rifle vs musket , Indian fighting, in fact some of the worst in history.While one wasn't fighting Indans you could get into a row with the Mexican authorities over a dictatorial government.Sound familiar?
 Even though The dictator Santa Anna claimed to be the Napoleon of the west and styled his army after the French  he used surplus British  Brown Bess muskets.
  The civilians from the United States brought over percussion rifles,and or shotguns.Many were using percussion here long before 1836. However some were still armed with flintlocks ,we're locked in a debate as to how many percussion vs flintlocks there were. The flintlock supporters claim that flints were cheaper than caps and the people were poor so they must have kept their flintlocks longer. The further we look the more percussion's we find. I guess it's the same everywhere if your booty is on the line you use the best available.
I've heard it said that the Pilgrims were poor so they must have used only matchlocks,however in digs at old forts and cities in America they are finding wheelock spanners and Schnaphans parts pretty fancy weapons for poor Pilgrims.
  Lately we find three winged musket caps on the battle field at San Jacinto I sure would like to know which group had those.
 The Mexican army did use the Baker rifle.

Musket caps. Interesting.
Hall Carbines perhaps?

What else would use musket caps at this time and when was the 3 wing cap developed?

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

blunderbuss

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 06:52:29 PM »
The main archaeological dig was done in 09 To see some of this go to ''San Jacinto Texas archaeological''  The book "Sea of Mud ' is an excellent read I know the SanJacinto monument book store has some of those books The book contains finds they have made from the Mexican army who retreated back to Mexico after the Battle of San Jacinto. Also they found some skulls one has a bullet hole smack in the middle of the forehead.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 08:24:02 PM by blunderbuss »

blunderbuss

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 06:59:24 PM »
Dan
 That three winged cap got me scratching my head too. I know there were 50 percussion Halls in Texas in 1836 but my source doesn't say which month.

I was asking help from some of Y'all to find if anyone had any info.on those caps the three winged thing just might be the key to finding them .I'll bet there was only one manufacture of them.

Dennis H

Offline Glenn

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 07:50:43 AM »
I'm sure there were several of the caplock weapons in use in Texas at the time of the Texas revolution.  I'm sure several caplock weapons were in use at the Battle of San Jacinto.

Lake Charles is an old port and of course so is New Orleans.  No doubt there was a constant supply line running east to west on or about what is now I-10.  Wouldn't have been too hard to get caps, flints, locks and most anything else way back then.  If you go to Sam Houston's house in Huntsville, you'll see there on display a halfstock caplock rifle he owned and used during his lifetime.

I'd like to see where they excavated back in 2009 and ask if I could volunteer to assist the next time they do that.  I'm born and raised within minutes of the battlefield and I live close by.  I've always wondered what was left behind out there.
Many of them cried; "Me no Alamo - Me no Goliad", and for most of them these were the last words they spoke.

Offline Glenn

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2011, 06:06:07 AM »
I don't know if I would get too caught up on the style of caps.  Back then, the hardware stores might've received a supply of one type of cap but not the other, and they used whatever was available.  Several types could've been sold in the same store(s) at the same time, but when they ran out of one type and couldn't get the others in for a while and folks needed caps they bought whatever they could get.

I'm sure somebody in Texas had the tech back then to make the caps locally too.

My question is, where were flints mined in Texas?  I've never heard of a flint mine here, much less a mine for iron ore and/or coal.
Many of them cried; "Me no Alamo - Me no Goliad", and for most of them these were the last words they spoke.

blunderbuss

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Re: Surplus Brown Besses
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 07:02:27 PM »
With the documentation I have on the 50 Halls rifles in Texas in 1836 there was an order for 10,000 musket caps,to accompany the rifles.If those were three winged musket caps and no one else sold that odd style musket cap we can then suppose that the weapons used were indeed Halls.
 Fannen ordered 10,000 caps there were a cash of 1000 caps found in the Alamo.There would have been no excuse in 1836 for not having caps and plenty of them in Texas. The big change apparently, from my documentation, occurred in the mid 1820's by 1830 the majority of gunsmiths were making exclusively percussion guns in the US. Meaning that the transitional rifle would have had to occur from 1814-1830 Crockett left Tennessee with two percussion rifles and traded for caps in Arkansas (so someone had caps as far away as Arkansas) Even Hawkins had quit making flintlocks early in the 1830's. Derringer was still only making large pistols and rifles in 1824 when he switched to percussion.
 There were still people using flint locks too even company's but many more percussions than previously thought