Looking for opinions on a rifle.

[jteeple]

I'd first like to thank nord for being of great assistance. When it comes to rifles i don't hold a candle in comparison. Thanks again. I'm hoping someone has seen a similar patchwork of rifles and have any information on how it might have come into my family. As far as I know I don't have any native people outside of marriage in my family.  Also as far as i know it was passed down since my father's grandfather. Here is a link to some of the pics. One is larger due to not being able to get a clear pic of what looks like a stamp or two on the barrel.

http://img600.imageshack.us/g/dscf0228t.jpg/

Took me a while to find this site. I'm glad i did. =)
Thanks in advance is you have any information in regards to this rifle!

[Fullstock longrifle]

You have an Indian trade gun, and a nice one at that!    I really like the three screw serpent side plate, the only question I have is that the front lock screw is missing, but the lock looks like it has a screw in place, did that screw break off?  Anyhow, here is a link to a book about the Hudson Bay Company Indian trade guns (it's at the bottom of the page), congratulations on  owning a nice gun.

http://www.armscollecting.com/Historical%20Arms.htm

FK

[Dphariss]

This is a pretty nice example of an "Trade Gun"/"Northwest Gun"/"Fusil"/"Fusee". One of several forms of smooth bore guns made for the Indian trade. There are both French and English "traders" as they were sometimes referred too. Calibers vary widely but the one you have should be about 55-60 caliber usually about 58 (24 gauge).
This form was made in large numbers in England  for trade to the North American Natives from the mid-18th century until about 1860 virtually  unchanged. By the 1860s percussion models were gaining popularity.

This one is a flintlock originally that was converted to percussion by removing the flintlock lock parts, installing a percussion hammer and a "drum" to mount the percussion nipple in probably in the 1840-1870 period. I cannot read a date if the lock has one.

They were very poplar with the Natives because they were light and the various gov'ts and even the traders preferred the natives not be armed with rifles from at least the 1750s on. So they were "pushed" so to speak. Plus as stated many natives preferred them.

Think of the Northwest Gun as an entry level, small bore shotgun that was generally used with a round ball weighing about 1/2 ounce. These guns did figure large in American history none the less.
While not as popular with the Americans as the rifle in the early 19th century west they were used in large numbers by the natives and by some whites as well.
If you search the WWW for "Northwest Gun", "Trade Gun" you should find some detailed historical information on the gun in general. There are books on the subject as well.
I would recommend that you not do any form of cleanup on the gun. If you feel it needs to be conserved search for someone here who will do the work, not everyone is qualified even then. DO NOT take it to a modern gunsmith. In the case of the patina on antiques "change" is bad.
The basic rule is admire but do not alter it in anyway.
Dan

[jteeple]

Wow i appreciate your folks input on this. I'm an IT fellow so this is an alien subject for me. The gun has been passed down since my father's grandfather. That's all i really know on the subject. Not knowing much about the gun made it more difficult to obtain information due to trade rifles being wide spread. I was able to find out that much from the serpent plate. I was reading one article that suggested some of them were harder to find due to some of the natives at the time breaking them down to use once the were no longer in working condition. The dates somewhat puzzled me. I was doing a bit of research and not realizing it may be several parts or a conversion was only able to find a couple references for "Ketland Walker & Co." which brought me to this link suggesting 1808-1815 or 1815-1818.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=wycmB1uJf1wC&lpg=PA221&ots=z4sb0ja3sB&dq=%22ketland%20walker%20%26%20co%22&pg=PA221#v=onepage&q=%22ketland%20walker%20&%20co%22&f=false

I also haven't been able to identify the stamps on the barrel at the octagonal part of the barrel one is hard to describe looking an inch away but the other almost looks like a reverse 3 with what appears to be a hammer in the bottom right followed by a sideways X.

I really appreciate all the insight you folks have provided and wish i was able to contribute knowledge to the community but am very new in this field of study.

To answer your question Fullstock, are you talking about the missing screw on the serpent connecting to the back? It appears at one point someone drove a homemade(by the looks of it) nail from underneath on an angle which i suppose could be what held it in place? Sorry as i said i don't know a lot about these so it's difficult to fully comprehend some of this.

[greybeard]

I believe the barrel stamps are british proof marks.   ??
Bob

[jteeple]

http://www.icollector.com/images/1200/17069/17069_1245_3_lg.jpg
I Found a similiar rifle someone had sold but unfortunately you can get a clear view of the stamp on it

I also found a list of some proofs out there but nothing seems to match although a couple seem almost like its on the right track.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TSWMm4ssHII/AAAAAAAAAtU/KsEBVZSaRr0/s1600/proof-marks-countries.jpg

Thanks again for the insight this is incredibly interesting but somewhat difficult to find information pertaining to my search.

[jteeple]

Sorry to keep bumping my own topic, ive really been actively researching on this subject lately.

I took a closer Look at the rifle to see if i cant find anything more specific to search for. The proof on the left in the picture seems to be a crown over what appears to be "GT" over top of a "W" the one on the right appears to be a crown over a pair of crossed pikes? I looked up Ketland, Walker & Co who seemed tied to Birmingham. Odd thing is i cant find any proof mark picks that confirm this. I see similar marks I seen a similar rifle here but it's a barnett http://www.mountainsofstone.com/trade_guns.htm The mark on the right matches but the one i have on the left differs. aside from the ketland lock it seems like its pretty close to the same aside from the flintlock difference.

The actual lengths are 38.5 inches for the barrel and the entire length is 51.5"

[jdm]

On the early trade guns the tang screw comes up through the trigger guard into the tang. That screw on the bottom of yours ( in my opinion) is supposed to be there.  The but plate should have square headed nails holding it in place also. Screws were used on the later ones.   DON"T  CLEAN IT.  Great piece   JIM

[jteeple]

Yea most the nails are square head ones i went on an assumption of being home made, rather forge hand made? And i Haven't done anything to it in fear of breaking it or some other horrible thing.

[dannybb55]

Just to make it clear, you have a trade gun, not a rifle. A trade rifle is a totally different weapon. Is it possible to take a clear photo of the writing on the lock behind the hammer? That would go a long way towards determining provenance. Different builders had contracts with certain trading companies or governments in different periods.
                                                                           Danny
                                       

[jteeple]

The writing is"Ketland Walker & Co." sorry i lost some resolution reducing the size of the images. Also thanks for clearing up the gun/rifle issue. I didnt realize there was a difference

[jdm]

  Is there a sitting fox stamped on the lock?  They  could also be stamped on the barrel. It would be a round circle with a fox in the center. It's hard to tell from the pictures but there appears to be whats left of one on the lock plate.   Ketland Walker & Co. shipped Northwest guns here from Birmingham . They were in business from 1750 to 1820. Your gun  is in the time period  not only of the fur trade  but also when the British were arming the American Indians during the war of 1812.   JIM

[jteeple]

It's hard for me to say one way or the other as i havent seen this image yet so im not 100% sure what im looking for. I think i see something there but i dont know well enough to say. I took another picture of just the lock. I didnt scale it down though so it's about 2mb on imageshak

http://img695.imageshack.us/i/dscf0238lz.jpg/

[Michael]

In the more detailed picture of the lock there appears to be the faint image of the 'circle fox' stamped below the pan. This was used by the Northwest Company and it was copied by the American and Belgian gunmakers who were making their own trade guns for sale in the northwest.

[tom patton]

This is a very nice fairly early Northwest gun marked Ketland Walker & Co.Assuming the lock to be original to the gun I'm not sure as to the barrel it was likely made sometime between the last decade of the 18th century and Ca,1819.JV Puleo has done a tremendous amount of research on the Ketlands and any statements made here by me are suject to his correction.I also have  material from Kit Ravenshear  The date as to when the Ketlands started  in the firearms business is unclear but it  appears that Thomas Ketland {1737-1816} was probably the founder.About 1789 Thomas Ketland,his son thomas and John Ketland emograted to America and the two younger Ketlands started doing business in Philadephia. Thomas the elder then returned to England and  formed a partnership with a Mr. Ryding. Then sometime before 1796 he apparently formed another partnership with William Walker.He and Walker eventually became part of the Birmingham Proof House which was established in 1813.About 1814 Ketland and  Walker were joined by a Mr. Adams and there are locks marked Ketland Walker & Adams.

Thomas Ketland died in 1816,William Walker died or retired about 1814,and Adams died or retired about 1822. Thomas's son Thomas returned to England apparently took over the business which became known as T.Ketland & Co and died in 1833 at the age of 72.It is not known exactly when the business shut its doors for good.

I would submit that the gun in question here was made sometime between Ca.  1796 and Ca. 1820 assuming that the lock with its markings is original to the gun.I understand that the barrel length is 38.5 in.with an overall length of 51.5 in. which suggests that the barrel may have been shortened but cannot be sure not having examined the gun itself.
As always I welcome any responsible opposing comment
Tom Patton





 

[JV Puleo]

This looks like it may be an extremely interesting gun - one I would love to get good pictures of. The owner is encouraged to contact me about that but PLEASE don't let anyone talk you into "reconversion." Were this gun reconverted, we would refuse to publish it.

First, the proofs... the pictures aren't clear on my screen but they look as if they are "GR" over a Broad Arrow and Crossed Scepters. These are the identical marks seen on the pistols purchased during the War of 1812 by the Board of Ordnance as gifts for friendly Indians. There is an excellent article on this subject that I have around here somewhere... but I'll have to look for it later. I believe there were a number of long guns as well and, if so, they are dateable in an unusually tight time frame.

As to Ketland & Walker... the partnership goes back to at least 1785 and probably earlier although Walker's name was seldom used. He was probably a money man as he always referred to himself as a "merchant", never as a "gunmaker". TK Sr. died in November of 1816 - Walker died in August of 1819. I have reason to believe that the partnership broke up in 1815 or early in 1816 when TK Jr. returned to the UK from Philadelphia. John Adams was probably TK SRs brother in law. He became a partner in the firm but I am not certain when... I suspect around 1813/1814. There are also guns marked KW&A so there is an overlap when all three were partners.

If all this is correct, especially the bit about the proof marks, the gun was probably made in 1812/1813/1814... again, I will have to check some of my data to be more certain than that.

As nice a man as he was - and he was a friend of mine, the Kit R material should be ignored. The available resources for this sort of work are so much better now than they were when he was doing his research that any comparison is really unfair... suffice it to say he made a lot of guesses, some of which were right but more were wrong. He was also the victim of some bad published sources... a trap anyone can fall into.

Joe Puleo

[JV Puleo]

Further to the above...

It looks as if the date has to be 1812/1813. For most of the 18th century gift arms were supplied by the Board of Trade which purchased them on the open market. In reality, most came from Richard Wilson and were purchased in London. The War of 1812 gift arms (which included long arms though I do not have the exact figures yet) were purchased by the Ordnance board hence they have the same proof marks as military arms.