Jaeger rifle, barrel lengt and caliber.......

[vegard_dino]

Hi all

Walking around, thinking of a muzzleloader, my first.
Style, Jaeger, the only thing I am sure about.
Then caliber, it will be a target and hunting gun, so guess the caliber will be around 14-17 mm.
So barrel and lengt, the Jaeger seems to be all short barreled. Made for hunting in woods/tick brush?
Will it have anything to say on precision?
Or, for the range the gun will be used at, up to around 70 yards, not mean anything?

I Saying so, I think am saying something wrong... Just me, thinking of the flintlock as a short range gun, a bit longer range than a bow, but still under 100 yards.

All help is welcome.

Thanks for looking

[Dave Faletti]

The shorter barrel is nice for balance and going thru the woods.  I wouldn't go shorter than 30inch.  Accuracy will be fine and it will be plenty lethal in the calibers you are thinking of.  I presume you are thinking of elk and deer size animals and not cape buffalo    Barrel weight and balance is a bigger issue with larger bores (>18mm)

[vegard_dino]

Thanks.
Yes, I am thinking of wild boar, deer, elk and so.....Not going for the cape, yet....

[Daryl]

I would set the range for a .60 to .62" cal. (around 15mm) flintlock or percussion, on moose and elk at around 150 yards - IF you feed it appropriately.  By that, I mean arond 120gr. to 130gr. of 2F powder.  It will certainly do the job and the gun has sufficient accuracy.

 Your ultimate accuracy with the rifle will determine your maximum range. A smoothbore, no rifling and properly loaded, flintlock or percussion, will work well on moose and elk to a good 75 yards.

[vegard_dino]

Hello

Well, I think I will go for a barrel with rifling.
Maybe easier to start with that?
But, today the .60 cal is loaded so it will have no problem taken down a moose or elk at 100-120-150 yards.
However, do anyone know what the load was on these guns back in the flintlock days?

I have been reading about a bear hunter around "my" forest, famous here locally, for his bears and bear killings. One bear he reports taking a shot at around 50 meters. Saying he was taking a chance, the bear was far away, but broad side and in mid day, so he did fire his 14mm rifle, the bear did walk away, 10 meters later lied dead in its tracks.

So also, he talked about his rifle, a french made "copy" of a gunmaker in Sweden. That he much preferred the 1/2 stocked styled over the full stocked rifle he had been using. Saying the wood made the bullets miss when it was wet and rainy days. Well, that can be so even today, but if the barrel/stock is properly bedded, I feel the full stock is just as accurate as a 1/2 stocked rifle. Maybe it was his gunmaker, not the style that turned him down?
Stil, interesting reading

Thanks for helping me all

[Daryl]

From what I've read, many of the Jaeger rifles had quite fast twists, designed for small powder charges and round balls. I do not know why - but that it was common with some English makers as well.

From experience, we know a twist rate in the 48" through 90" range will work well with a variety of powder charges. Generally, the slower the twist, the more powder you can use. Suffice to say, to use a big powder charge with a faster twist, you need a VERY tight combination to shoot well, but well it will shoot.  My 14 bore, ie: .69 cal/17.5 mm rifle with a relatively fast twist of 66" recently made a 6 shot group at 20 yards of 1 1/4" wide X 3 1/2" tall, shot from a bench position. We like larger powder charges than used in the 1800's as the more powder used, the flatter the trajectory and more accurately the gun shoots. The flatter it shoots, the easier it is to hit with at unknown ranges.  50 yards is around maximum pistol range for moose and elk with a .54 cal or larger pistol.  It is not even remotely long for a properly loaded rifle.  A friend of mine has taken moose with a .45 (11mm) cal. rifle with round balls at 75 yards - 1 ball, 1 moose - double lunged, ball in the meat between 2 ribs on the far side. The moose lay down inside 50 yards and died there.  Moose are babies, if you don't chase them.  Elk, can be very tough, especially if the followup is too soon.

Shooting offhand and sitting on the ground with cross sticks, it displayed sufficient accuracy for shooting moose and elk at that range as every shot of 10 fired on the target would have been a killing shot.  The 17.5mm possessed enough 'powder' at that range for that game, the powder charge being 140 to 165gr.  It shoots a 484gr.(31.4gram) round ball. 

[vegard_dino]

Ask and learn And I do.
Thanks for helping me, great information Daryl.

I do se the gain one get from a larger load, more power, flatter trajectory and so. All good.
What I did not know was that the muzzleloader was effective on ranges that long.
I was thinking more of a max up to 70-80 yards.

[Daryl]

in my opinion:
Many people think in terms of muzzleloaders as being short range guns mostly due to the 'age' or 'period age' of the guns as well as to the sighting systems used on them - ie: antique looking open sights.

In today's scoped gun age, many have never learned to shoot with open sights so they don't and believe that any gun with open sights to them, is a close range weapon.  Just look at the 'modern' muzzleloading game- inlines and scopes - ie: 3-9x40's being popular. To me, these aren't real muzzleoaders. They are modern guns, many are bolt actioned, that are designed to also load from the muzzle.  If you have the breech tool(they come with one), you can load them from the breech.

Many of us who do shoot 'real' muzzleloaders, do not shoot them often and many people never become really proficient with their 'antique' sights.

Many who shoot muzzleloaders only shoot at close ranges when they do shoot, so they don't know or havne't learned their muzzleoader's capability at longer ranges.  In the 1800's there are anecdotal notes on long shots on enemies - to 300yards, with round ball guns - and mention of bears, deer and other game out to 150yards or further. On the plains with large game and longer ranges than the bush provided, bore sizes of the day were found to be innadequate & thus, larger bores became popular - as small as.45 & up through .60 cal.

In the 1800's, English round ball guns usually were sighted to 150 or 200yards depending on the size of the ball.  The really large sizes were sighted shorter - the crushers, ie: 8 bores to 4 bores.

I well remember when Taylor and I first got involved in 'organized' muzzleloading shooting.

We'd both been shooting for a number of year, and for us, 50 yards was 'close' range, while 100 yards to 200 and even 300 yards were our normal 'bulk' shooting ranges.  When we went to a rondezvous and saw targets at 50 yards being pretty much their longest, with 25 yards being the norm, it was easy for us to pretty much clean up.  Afterall, it was all point blank shooting.  They had a couple 'novelty' shoots at 100 yards on large steel plates - good heavens that was normal range, not long range. What a blast!

Perspecitve - it all amounts to perspective - and practise - what ranges do you practise at?

If you practise only at 25 yards, pretty soon 50 to 60 yards is long range.  Practise at 100 to 150yards and anything closer is point blank- it's simply a mind game- with practise making accurate hitting possilble.

Today, we shoot too many close targets and then small targets at 100 yards become difficult - they shouldn't and needn't be. We ALL need to do more longer range shooting.

For hunting large, tough or dangerous game, use that large bore (.62 or larger), learn to shoot it with it's most accurate, oiled patch hunting load - (I gaurantee it isn't 60 or even 100gr. of 2F powder) practise out to 150 yards and you will kill/drop/anchor your game with one well placed shot. The animal will drop just as quickly or more quickly than if you'd used any modern hunting rifle.

I've been there.  I've only shot moose as far away as around 100 yards with my 14 bore(17.5mm), but have seen a 170 yard moose killed with a mere .54 rifle loaded with a round ball. That's 13.7mm, btw.

[vegard_dino]

 

What can I say?

Thanks for great information and help.
Guess I have to stop looking at it as a old gun.
True about open sights, sad that it i snot used more than it is. I now only hunt with it.

The flintlock, muzzleloader is a great gun. As sad, all living animal have been taken with one.
So, whatever caliber, from 13-20 mm, will be a good hunting gun.
Just need to learn to master the rifle. Just as a modern rifle. A bad shot placement is bad, be it a modern magnum or a 16 bore roundball.

The more I look on photos from dealers in vintage guns, the more I like them. At first, I was JAEGER only all the way.....Not so sure now. The french made some nice guns to.
Oh, maybe it is just me, or have I got some kind of disease now? Muzzleloaders something?

But, stil the Jaeger is the style, rifled or smoothbore....I find that rifle to look so solid, so strong. Compared to the more light and delicate looking french guns. Or, maybe it is just what the eyes se.

Thanks for helping and great information.

[northmn]

The German Jaeger was originally fast twist and large bore.  When the Jaeger corps was brought into the US revolution by the British to try to equalize the American Longrifle they did not do so as we could outdistance them.  I have seen twist rates as fast as 1-36 or 1 -91.5 cm for original Jaegers.  When the English adopted the Baker rifle they went to a twist rate of 1-120 1-300+cm and were able to use it to good effect against Napoleon's forces.  Most modern 62's (15.3 mm) barrels are relatively slow twists and also use a 610 or larger ball as compared to the 20 bore smothbore.  The current Coleraine offering for a Jaeger barrel is 28.5 inches or 72.5 cm. 

DP

[vegard_dino]

Thanks.
Interesting information

[blunderbuss]

I hunt with a .577, 27 1/2 in barreled Jaeger that I made and had rifled with one turn in 50" 7groves. I've killed alot of deer with it and one 300 lb black Russian hog. The ball went right through the hog . My longest shot has been 125 yards several shots at running deer that's where she really shines it's handy in the woods and one can get in a deer stand with it

[jeager58]

jaerers had a very wide variety of barrel lengths  from 22" to 38"   and everything in between       the calibers ranged from 50 to 62 for the average. things to consider are how far do you want to shoot.   a 45 or 50 cal will shoot farther  but will have less power to bring your game down. 54 to 62 will have plenty of power but will be limited on distance  150 yards.      In my opinion the best combo is a 31 inch barrel with a 1-66 rate of twist in caliber   plenty of power with a good shot group at 120 yards...Phil

[blunderbuss]

I had a fellow once tell me that my Jaeger would shoot good at 50 yards but with a 1-48 twist and a 27 1/2 barrel wasn't much good after that. Well I took it to a 200 yard range just to see and guess what ,it drops some. but she was right on. The Germans wouldn't make large bores with a fast twist for 250 years if they wouldn't shoot

1-48 was a pretty standard twist in the good old days both here and Europe because they didn't shoot as much powder as we do today. So along comes Lyman shooting catalog and starts telling us that we're not shooting enough powder ,to bad Crockett and those boys didn't hear that. So the rifle barrel makers started putting slow twist in them so we could do what the powder makers want us to do and shoot more powder.

I've made several shots at 100 yards on deer with my 1-48 Jaeger and a heart shot at 125 yards using 70 gr ffg The ball passed completely through all animals. I would hazard a guess as that it could be done with 60 g ffg. Shooting manuals  of the period recommend one grain per caliber or even less. 

[Daryl]

blunderbuss - I had a fellow once tell me that my Jaeger would shoot good at 50 yards but with a 1-48 twist and a 27 1/2 barrel wasn't much good after that. Well I took it to a 200 yard range just to see and guess what ,it drops some. but she was right on. The Germans wouldn't make large bores with a fast twist for 250 years if they wouldn't shoot.

The English made that mistake as well.

By fast twists by the Germans, we are not talking about 48"- THAT is a round ball twist & works very well inmost common calibres, especially with the old iron barrels.   The Germans and Brits actually got carried away with fast twists -  as fast as 22" to 38"- in round ball guns - those twist rates are very limited in the loads that would work, light loads that were "useless for the killing of game" - in Forsythe's words. Forsythe was the original slow twist promoter - in 1860.

The German and English makers cut eceedingly fast twists out of ignorance, not because those 22 to 38" twists worked well. I suspect their testing was at relatively close range with sights adjusted to that specific range.

Once such gun Forsythe had, a 13 bore with 36" of twist and would strip if a descent charge was used, hence it had a trajectory of some 13" over 100 yards - useless for big game.  If it's big ball hit, it killed (or wounded), but it was exceedingly difficult to hit with, if the precise range wasn't known.  In England and Europe, dogs were used to collect wounded game - hense to wound, was virtually the goal as much as to kill outright & the fast twists prevailed for some time.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have quite a few muzzleloading rifles and guns.  But the one I made specifically for hunting is my jaeger.  It has a Getz .60 cal barrel with a 1:66" twist x 31" long.  The rifle is stocked in curly Western maple, is light, and has a fixed rear sight.  I have several vials of gold nuggets that were offered as prizes in long range matches at Lillooet, BC, where the closest shot was a bread and butter plate sized steel disc at 100 yds. and the farthest of seven targets was the size of a three ringed binder at 275 yds.  These ranges are estimates since no one measured them, but there was agreement on the field.  I shoot 85 grains of FFg GOEX, a .595" pure lead ball and the patch is .022" lubricated with spit in the summer, and neatsfoot oil in the winter.  
I will tell you my secret...the barrel is rust blued and very smooth.  When I sight at targets that are past two hundred yards, I raise the front sight over the notch of the rear sight until I see the reflection of the front sight on the barrel, and put that into the notch.  In other words, I see the reflection of the front silver sight about half way along the barrel, and put that into the notch.  I always put the front sight in the centre of the target, no matter the range.
The gist of this is that a short barreled big bored rifle can be a good hunting rifle out to relatively long ranges.  What is important is not the potential of the rifle, but the limitations of the hunter.  Practice is everything.

[blunderbuss]

I've seen those fast twist Jaegers and wondered about that. Unless they were shooting conical bullets. They sure knew about them. I've even seen old bullet moulds with round ball and conical on the same block