Early Lancaster take 3 - lock panels revisited

[Curtis]

Due to a busy springtime, it has taken me several weeks to get back in the shop.  I have tried to distill comments from my previous posting and apply them to the rifle. (here is a link to that post http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15541.msg146129#msg146129 ) I really appreciate all the great help I received from the earlier posts and look forward to fresh comments.

Here are some current photos of the lock panels.



















Hopefully I am progressing in the right direction, or I fear I will run out of wood soon!

Thanks, Curtis

[Jim Kibler]

It looks as though you are doing some good work, but the lock panels look as though they are defined by a little too tight of a radius.   Take a look at the drawing I posted showing the cross section before carving and compare it to your gun.  Now, I must say your gun is still very nice and will look good regardless.  I can tell your doing clean and careful work and it will show in the final product.

Jim

[Ed Wenger]

Curtis,

I'll be a parrot and mimic what Jim said.  If you think of the panels as a cliff, they'd be pretty steep.  A gentle slope might be a more subtle approach.  It looks as though you used a rat tail file to create the radius?  That works a little better on the front of the panels.  For the rear, you can get a nice effect by using a flat rasp / file.  Typically, a decent amount of wood is going to be removed when the panels are carved and the "gentle slope" can be transitioned into the wrist.

Having said all that, I also agree with Jim in that it still looks really nice and will "work nicely" as is.  You've got some really nice, sharp lines going there, tight inlets to the proper depth, and nice architecture.  Except for the fact that you put the lock on the wrong side!  Keep us posted, that's going to be a nice piece...

         Ed

[Curtis]

Jim & Ed, thanks for your comments.  I will see if I can reduce the radius on the panels a bit more without messing things up too much.  I still plan on adding some beavertails and molding to the panels if I can work it out.

How about the architecture in the wrist and comb - is it looking close or do I have more wood to remove in these areas?

Oh, and Ed, the lock is on that side because I am a member of an elite secret society - I can't divulge our inner circle secrets, however let is suffice for me to say that right-handers need not apply for membership! 

[bama]

I think what Jim is saying is that side panels should not appear to jump out of the wood but instead flow out of the wood. You have the panels just about right as far as the amount of wood that showing around the lock and side plate. If you can just soften the radius so that the panels are not so abrupt then you got it. As the others have said you are doing a nice job and it will be a rifle to be proud of. This area is hard to get right and one that it took me a while to start getting better at. Many originals when you look at them from the side appear to have well defined panels but when you look at them from the top or bottom you realize that the edges of the panels are not sharp but rather a rolled edge that flows from front of the panel back into the stock. That is why it is important to look at originals every chance you get.

[caliber45]

Curtis -- Ah, finally!! Someone with a workbench (almost) as messy as mine! Those surgically neat guys worry me some . . . paulallen, tucson az

[Meteorman]

Curtis -

I really like the overall cleanliness of your gun in progress.

I'm a relative noob myself and I struggle with lock panels, so I'm paying close attention to this thread.

There has been some really great advice on this and your earlier thread about the lock panels on your gun.
What I'm taking away from all this re: lock panel shaping, especially in the top and rear, I think, may be illustrated in the Allen Martin rifle pictured in a recent thread:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15766.msg147908#msg147908

Those pictures, along with the words here,  sort of made the light bulb go on (it flickered, at least)  for me. 
Now if I can just get my hands to "make it so" next time!
keep the pics coming.

/Mike

[Ed Wenger]

Curtis,

From what I can see in the photos, and without holding the rifle, I'm thinking the wrist and comb look pretty good.  Most Lancaster school rifles have a more oval or rounded wrist, which it looks you did nicely here.  Some other schools like the Lehighs have more of a flattened wrist, if that makes sense.  That also makes it a little easier with the panels.  Like I said earlier, you're going to have nice looking rifle there...

Oh, I'm a righty, but I can shoot lefty, does that count for admission?...

         Ed

[Tim Crosby]

 For those that don't know I think these are the drawings Jim is refering to:

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15541.msg146136#msg146136

 Tim C.

[Curtis]

Bama- thanks for the kind words.  Also, I think I understand the concept of what the lock panel radius should be on the Lancaster style, I am just having some issues of getting the brain to tell the fingers the proper way to achieve it on the wood.  I have to agree that studying originals whenever possible is a big help to understanding architecture.

PaulAllan- Mess? What mess?!!  It's just getting to look "comfortable".  

Meteor Man - I have seen some of your work here and on other sites... seems to me like you have a pretty good grasp of what a gun should look like! Keep up the good work.
That Allen Martin rifle in your link is certainly a prime example of what a lock panel should be.  What a beauty!

Ed - Other than learning the secret handshake there are really very few benefits to joining the secret society....  the whole thing is just a ruse to bilk potential members out of the six-pack entry fee. That said, if you can soot lefty, you are welcome to join!
Now back to the rifle.... I have the wrist fairly well rounded, but I am uncertain if it is slim enough to "fit" the rest of the rifle.  If you notice in a couple of the photos I there is an original rifle in the background, I have no idea what school it is from (definitely not a Lancaster) but the wrist is quite flattened on the sides, more like a Lehigh.

[bgf]

I'm not up to the level of those you have gotten advice from, but the one thing that started to make it click for me was to do the panels as much as possible with only a 12" half-round file (just an example of what I had in the "large" category), and using the flat side as much as possible.  Look at a detailed picture of an original, and you'll see that much of what looks like intentional shaping is most likely a product (limitation?) of the tool and methods they were using.  It would be hard to get too sharp a radius with a tool like that.

The original in the background looks much later -- it will have an oval wrist most likely.  Someone who knows more about Lancasters than I do can give you the exact profile you need on yours (my guess is round would be a safe bet for Early).

I would have put stain and finish on that rifle weeks ago -- it looks good, so I commend you for taking your time to get things right.

[Jay Close]

SquirrelHeart:

Let me chime in here and say what a wonderful improvement you've made! One little point that you can still work on is the area on the underside of the wrist near the tail of the lock and sideplate panels.

As I interpret the photos it seems like there is still a rounded corner their that needs to be blended  into the panels and the triggerplate much as you did along the tang on the top of the wrist. It should  really be a rolling, sweeping flat through there.

The junction of the comb and cheekpiece look pretty good from where I sit.

Carry on!

[Curtis]

BGF and Jay,

Thanks for the comments and input.  The original rifle in the background is a much, much later piece than an early Lancaster and the wrist is quite oval.  I will try to post some pics of it in the antique section one of these days. 

Also there definitely needs to be some additional blending between the lock panels and the trigger plate, I will give that a whirl when I get the opportunity to return to the shop.