Any one see Roger Fisher's "A Brass Grenade" in the March '11 MB?

[Maven]

Roger wrote about what happens when we get careless and take little things for granted.  In this case, the "little thing" was an unprotected pan charger.  Last year one of the participants at our BP shoot chastised another shooter for wearing one of those around his neck, saying it would be like a bomb if it exploded.  Fortunately, that didn't happen at our shoot, but the subject of the article wasn't so lucky.  Quite the cautionary tale, Roger!

[ken]

Yes I saw the article! I also have seen it in person. That poor man was in a world of hurt for a while!!  This is a good leason that things happen and People can get hurt. You may get away with it for some time but sooner or later you will get cauth This man could have been much worst off. This is why blackpowder is listed as a explosive. !!

[Pete G.]

I think the key is that the nozzle was pointing up to avoid leaking. I carry one nozzle up in my bag for the same reason, but I'm starting to rethink that.

[omark]

pete, the trouble with having the spout down is that then it might leak and powder could accumulate then catch a spark. i didnt read the article but have heard of this happening when some one was carrying the flask in an open shirt pocket, but if its in a pocket with a flap or bag with flap and they are closed, i wouldnt think it would be a problem. i sometimes carry my priming flask in my shirt pocket but i always wear western shirts and make sure the flap is over the pocket.  mark

[Dphariss]

Thick walled metal containers should never be used for powder.
By think I mean thicker than the old copper/brass flasks were.
They did not make them that thin so they would dent easy they made them thin to reduce the "bang" to a "whoose" if the thing went up.
I had a brass charger and I really liked it until I was told it was a bad idea and then the light bulb came on.
Heavy containment means higher pressure explosion when the container finally fails. More damage to surrounding area.
This is why wheel mills are supposed to be enclosed by at least one weak wall.
Dan

[Daryl]

I had a couple of those THINGS & changed to horns immediately upon seeing the original post - as Dan put it, the light went on (sometimes takes a high voltage jolt with me )

I do have a small Italian Pistol flask I could use but it's a bit big for prime.

[Leatherbelly]

   Rog,
 Where did the problem lay with that primer? Was it a stuck plunger?

[Daryl]

I've had 3 of those things. The spring works itself over the spring stop, and then the plunger jams, allowing prime to dribble out.  I've 'repaired' mine several times and there are 2 plunger springs out on our trail, somewhere.   LB - think I only have one left - you want it?

[Roger Fisher]

  Rog,
 Where did the problem lay with that primer? Was it a stuck plunger?

Not sure but very possible! Those brass grenades have a little coil spring that returns the plunger tube to closed position.  They frequently build up gunk on the tube and happens more often in high humid conditions or even not so high. This causes the plunger to stick partly open and need disasembly cleaning and assembly thats if you don't lose that !@*%&@ little bitty coil spring.  Our shooter got away with covering the thing while it was stuck in the flapless pouch on his bag strap with his left elbow, for 30 yrs til murphy's law caught up with him. Notice he shoots a right hand flinter left handed.  This put the lock directly above the primer.  He agrees that he could have not covered the primer as usual with his elbow or could also have depressed the plunger with his elbow and have given the errant spark a green light.

I would judge that the plunger was stuck partly open although he claims he had cleaned it (when??)  and that it had closed cleanly when he primed the piece (would he have remembered that?) In any case, he was @!*% lucky that he did not bleed to death with shrapnel in an artery.  He says he did leave a $#*! of a blood trail to the kitchen sink.    My hope is that some folks will use this incident as incentive to correct a problem they may have with their own equipment set up..  Its an easy fix.

[ken]

Sorry to say but it does not matter if the plunger got stuck, or depressed.Any thing that transports powder will develope powder dust at th tip and will ignight if exposed to a spark. Think of it as 7f. Always put it in a safe place. Why take the chance?

[Pete G.]

Pete, the trouble with having the spout down is that then it might leak and powder could accumulate then catch a spark. i didnt read the article but have heard of this happening when some one was carrying the flask in an open shirt pocket, but if its in a pocket with a flap or bag with flap and they are closed, i wouldnt think it would be a problem. i sometimes carry my priming flask in my shirt pocket but i always wear western shirts and make sure the flap is over the pocket.  mark

I don't think it is a question of "might" leak. With the weight of the device resting on the spout it WILL bounce around and perform as designed....dispensing powder. I made a primer with one of the valves and a horn tip, but I don't think that horn would act much differently that brass in this case. Black powder is an explosive, no matter what the container. One of the reasons I carry the horn on my left side is to keep it away from the rifle. I have also started to carry one of my smaller horns, although I really don't think anyone could tell much difference between a 1/3 pound explosion or a 1/2 pound explosion at close range.

[whitebear]

This is one of my pet peeves.  Original powder flask were soldered together on the edges and the tops were put on with tiny screws very close to the lip of the flask so that if they ignited the sides would rupture easily and/or the cap would blow off easily to release pressure more safely than if they were thick and heavily built.

Powder horns had the base plug attached with wooden pegs, thorns, or small nails or screws close to the big end of the horn and sealed with beeswax not glue for easy release of pressure.

[Pete G.]

Can't remember exactly where I read it years ago, but I've always read that black powder burns the same whether in confinement or not. I have also read about using pegs in a horn to relieve pressure. I really don't think it would make any difference whatsoever if it happened while the horn was being worn. I did once witness a guy put a fuse in the spout of an old horn and lit it off. The horn shattered into a bunch of pieces and one of the pieces was the base with the pegs still intact. The relieved pressure came out of the sides of the exploded horn.

Bottom line is that this stuff can be dangerous.
Don't get complacent, and ya'll take care out there.

[Roger Fisher]

Can't remember exactly where I read it years ago, but I've always read that black powder burns the same whether in confinement or not. I have also read about using pegs in a horn to relieve pressure. I really don't think it would make any difference whatsoever if it happened while the horn was being worn. I did once witness a guy put a fuse in the spout of an old horn and lit it off. The horn shattered into a bunch of pieces and one of the pieces was the base with the pegs still intact. The relieved pressure came out of the sides of the exploded horn.

Bottom line is that this stuff can be dangerous.
Don't get complacent, and ya'll take care out there.

Yes, it seems that is how it happens.

A yr or so ago, this was written up in M Blasts with photos.  Two horns were constructed using the horns from the same animal and scraped to approx the same thickness one horn end plug was wax sealed the other glued and small wood pegs used in at least one horn.  They were lit off and both shattered to $#*! and gone. End plugs didn't save anything....

Other example was a fine priming horn that used I do believe 4 or 5 fine pegs.  The shooter was in a chair, primed his flinter, laid the horn on his leg fired the rifle and the horn shattered into several pieces.  Again the end plug didn't relieve a thing.  The shooter had nasty wound or wounds to his thigh...So do not depend on a lightly attached end plug.   

[valongrifles]

On a small scale, start a good bon-fire in your back yard and then pitch in a couple of .22 rounds. They will soon ignite and burst and, in all likely hood the only thing leaving the fire will be the shrapnel. The bullet will melt. Same applies to larger cal. cartridges. IF a casing is against a bullet when the case goes it may propel the bullet away but not necessarily in the direction in which it is pointed.  If there is a very small amount of powder in a horn/flask with a snug fitting plug, the container may do just that, contain the explosion and propel the plug away from the container. But, then the question is, If the container was in fact tight in itself and the plug was secure in the spout, how is the contents going to ignite? Best practice is to religate the powder away from any source of ignition; intended or accidental.

[blunderbuss]

There was a fellow at a meet years ago that had a powder flask laying on his table while he was bench shooting his percussion rifle . The powder flask exploded and it was 18" from his lock. I don't think the valve on a powder flask will seal fire tight on it's best day.