Author Topic: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns  (Read 11652 times)

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« on: June 07, 2011, 04:42:49 PM »
Can any one tell me where I can find some detailed pictures of North West Coast Indian decorated (painted or carved) trade guns?

I want to do something along those lines, but dont want to reinvent the wheel, so I would like a few good examples to go by.

Thanks very much in advance for any help.
TC
« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 05:05:02 PM by T.C.Albert »
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 05:44:53 PM »
TC:  Are you meaning art work by such artisans as the "Haida" from coast of British Columbia?   I have only ever seen one original Northwest gun decorated with this type of art it was stunning!  It is located in the Anthropology Museum at the University of British Columbia.  You can find it on line - the object           # is:1584, the culture is: Haida.      I have studied this type art for many yrs. when I lived in B.C. I also have cut some it in different mediums such scrimshaw and silver carving.   To do properly the art form is quite complicated and takes a lot of study to grasp it.  To the Native it has a "spiritual" meaning and a way of depicting ledgens as well as recording their family history.   The images are largely abstract and semi-abstract.    Below I have add some photos of my attempts at the art form.   I had plans to re-create this type of Northwest gun myself since I have done number of restorations on those guns and I have a fair grasp of the Northwest Coast art-form.  However that project will have to wait till the next life!!??.   :D       Hugh Toenjes  


« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 05:30:03 AM by Blacksmoke »
H.T.

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 06:08:19 PM »
Thanks very much Hugh...yep, thats exactly the style I am looking for.
You sure are right about all the study needed to grasp and execute these  designs in particular...Ive studied and practised them in various mediums myself for about 15 years and still feel that I dont understand a thing yet.

The "Pecatonica river supply" catalog from back in the early 1980s had a picture of such a carved NW gun on its cover, but I cant find my old copy and Dick said they dont have the image anymore.

Well, wish me luck, I am seriously planning to decorate a trade gun stock in this manner, and hope to do a good job at it.
TC 
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline BillPac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
  • N. Ohio
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 07:18:55 PM »
TC
I remember that cover, I may still have it.  Will check tonight.
BillP

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2011, 07:44:50 PM »
Thanks a million Bill..
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Dunc

  • Guest
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2011, 08:10:27 PM »
T.C., is this what you had in mind?


Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2011, 09:07:12 PM »
Wow...thats quite a carving...thanks much for the image...but actually I was thinking more about the carving style that Blacksmoke mentioned...
Can you please tell me a bit about the gun in the image you posted? Thats pretty fantastic....
Thanks again,
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 09:26:58 PM »
TC,  Let me do some checking.  Several years ago we had Bill Holm come and speak to our Gunmakers Guild in Washington.  He had a couple of photos of an original NW gun carved up and down both sides with NW coastal indian art.  I have a DVD of his presentation whic included pictures of that gun.  He also had a half finished contemporary gun he was working on.  I will PM you in a day or two.
DMR

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 09:38:42 PM »
Thanks David...man, what a talk that would have been...he is a legend.
thanks again very much,
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Dunc

  • Guest
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 09:58:48 PM »
Wow...thats quite a carving...thanks much for the image...but actually I was thinking more about the carving style that Blacksmoke mentioned...
Can you please tell me a bit about the gun in the image you posted? Thats pretty fantastic....
Thanks again,
TC


TC, that gun was carved by Ivan Shirk, a Pacific NW coast native artist, back in the late 70"s or early 80's.

Dunc.

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2011, 10:07:47 PM »
Tim - Yuo might also check with the folks on the Plains Indfain Seminar Yahoo Group here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminartwo/?yguid=174734538

While it's specifically Plains Indian they also discuss NW and Bill HOlm is a memeber along with many other well known "experts" on traditional Indian gear - you will have to join to view/ask but that's easy to do and the picture archive alone is worth joining.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2011, 10:15:23 PM »
Thanks Chuck...I shoulda thunk of that...(I am already a member I believe)
Thanks again for the tip..
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline BillPac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
  • N. Ohio
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 03:51:18 AM »
TC
Sorry but I can not find my copy of that catalog.  I will keep looking but I suspect is is not to be found.
BillP

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 04:19:16 AM »
I'd also check with the Provincial Museum in Victoria, B.C., and also with the Burke Museum in Seattle.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 04:43:35 AM »
A museum piece of longstanding provenience would be your best bet. Sometime back, I had seen such carved guns, (mostly Winchesters) and thought that a muzzle loading trade gun would be appealing; I was informed by serious collectors that most of those in private hands, or for sale, were lately carved.
Guess that is an arguable point since most NWC art was done after the Boston Men arrived bringing steel tools in abundance to the people, and thus making that type of profuse wood carving a fairly late manifestation. It is beautiful, done by whomever, and good luck to you on your search and on your 'build'.
I have an NWC relief carved powder horn, (very old), that has bear, beaver and loon depicted on the jacket. Let me know when you find your pattern and I'll send you a DVD of the horn so that you can make one like it for your gun.
Dick

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2011, 05:21:29 AM »
Dick, I would love to see that DVD, and I would perhaps carve the gun to match the horn...after I tried my hand at a similar horn itself maybe.
Thanks very much...
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2011, 07:22:35 AM »
T.C., I will be pleased to send the DVD to you, or would it be better to post it here? Either way, or both. Just let me know. Horn was in the renowned John du Mont collection of powder horns and it came into my hands at auction on his passing.
Regards-Dick

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2011, 02:34:36 PM »
I bet everyone following this thread would like to see the horn images  here. I know I would for sure if you dont mind posting them. Thanks very much...
sincerely,
TC 
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2011, 05:45:23 PM »
An aside here, related to iron tools arriving with the "boston men." There are tales and evidence that the coastal people knew about iron before "contact." It arrived in the form of fastenings and fittings washed up on beaches from shipwrecks, probably from Japanese or Chinese ships. Such metal was prized, and--to their credit--the finders figured out what to do with it. Can't remember where I read that. I'm a long time way from college classes!
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2011, 06:24:50 PM »
Kermit:  I agree with you - as I understand from my research when living on the coast in B.C. - the Northwest Coast art form was already happening when the Europeans made contact with trade vessels from Boston, Russia, England and Spain.   
Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2011, 08:49:09 PM »
The NWC art forms began in prehistoric times, but on a very small scale. Excavations in sites produce carved shell and stone ornaments as well as some ornamented utilitarian items, which one might consider proto NWC art themes. We don't know about wood, but it seems reasonable that they carved it, as well.
There was small amount of native copper and meteoric iron, but that could not provide the means for the massive florescence of art forms that began in the very late 1700s.
Starting in the 1600s Mexico began maritime commerce with Asia and set up regular schedules for the ships setting out from Acapulco on the Japanese current.
On the return voyage the Manilla Galleon fleet sailed past some of the NW shores and occasionally a ship was wrecked. It seems that the locals did not take in survivors, but may have killed them. In one  instance, downriver along the Columbia, a Spaniard, named Soto, convinced the Chinook to spare his life since he was a blacksmith and could work iron. This they apparently did and a village was pointed out to Lewis and Clark as the 'Shoto Village' where he had lived. No dates are given for his life.
The Spaniards sent the Malespina Expedition, (in the 1790s), to the NW to head off Russian and English incursons. It was too little too late, of course, but I would not be surprised if they had been active on a small scale in the area for some time, as it was territory of New Spain. The galleons were forbidden to land for any reason, by law, but it is almost certain that some did. So, some trade likely occurred on those occasions. Another source, however small. Just some additional thoughts on this subject.
If someone will email me an address, I will send the DVD of the horn to you and ask you to post the photos, as I work off of a piece of $#@* apple with more limitations than applications. I will copy the disc so that there will be no need to return it. Give me a few days, if you would.
Dick

Offline T.C.Albert

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3582
    • the hunting pouch
Re: Northwest Coast Indian decorated trade guns
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2011, 09:58:01 PM »
Dick,
I just sent an email to the address on your profile.
Thanks again
TC
"...where would you look up another word for thesaurus..."
Contact at : huntingpouch@gmail.com