Barrel out of square

[coopersdad]

It seems every operation I finish on this rifle I step back and say, "ok, how am I going to get out of this one....?"  I searched the forum and the archives in hopes someone else had done this new whoopsie, but didn't find it.  Hope this is the same as the last issue I asked about: no big deal, but I'm worried.   

When inletting the swamped barrel, I noticed it was becoming a touch out of square with the blank.  Try as I might, i couldn't get it rotated to exactly square, and finally it was inlet.  When I placed a square flat on the stock side near the breech, I could see about 1/64" gap at the edge of the top flat.   I was excited I was making progress, so instead of planing the blank square with the barrel right then (probably my best option), I decided I'd deal with it later and went ahead and made the RR groove, drilled the hole, and inletted the bbl. tang. 

I thought about drawfiling the top flat square with the blank, but decided against it.  So I made the lockplate and sideplate panels exactly square with the barrel. 

Of course this turned my nice square blank into a parallelogram at the panel area.  The top looks OK but now the stock centerline on the bottom of the forestock is about 1/8" off center.  Will I be able to "fudge" the triggerguard to one side and hide some of this with stock shaping?  I think I'm going to be chasing this error to the end of the build.  I'm sure there are some consequences I haven't even considered yet.  Any comments or advice are appreciated!!

[Glenn]

If it was me the first thing I'd try is sending the barrel back for a replacement.  sounds like that may qualify as a "factory defect" ... 

[coopersdad]

Nothing wrong with the barrel - I just got it set in the stock crooked. 

[greybeard]

Kinda sounds like you are on the horns of an enema!!!  LOL  How would it be to get a new barrel 1/16 larger and try to get it in there square>>> If it works for you you still have a barrel for your next build. I'm just trying to imagine the problem in my head. That would only work if there is still lots of wood to work with. Else get a new piece of wood and start anew.

Good luck & Cheers    Bob

[brokenflint]

Coop You've hit on the solution yourself.   This can be more or less a common problem as the barrel will have a tendancy to cant some as you inlet.  Inlet the barrel, then square up the lockplate surface. bingo you've got it square    I like to inlet the lock then match the finished width on the sideplate surface, but that's just my 2c for what ever its worth.

Broke

[Robby]

Coop, If I understand you correctly, I may have a solution. First, I seat the barrel into the stock, place it in a vice and level it.

I take a string with A dowel on one end and a plum bob on the other. Take a little piece plywood, cut a v-notch for the string and thin the bottom of the v to an edge. The height will vary depending on drop. Line the string at the muzzle through the v notch. Here it gets a little tricky. The string must be very close to but not touch the breech of the barrel, or the toe of the stock, causing a miss read. The stock shown is for clearity, but you can see the crane (v-notched piece) is maneuvered in such away as to keep the string centered on the barrel, and at the same time give a mark of plumb to the center line of the leveled barrel. Its easier to do than explain.

If I misunderstood your problem, maybe someone can use this info. somewhere. Good luck.
Robby

[coopersdad]

Brokenflint hit on what I should have done before I did the RR groove and hole, thinned the forestock, and bandsawed close to the profile (where''s the emoticon that kicks itself in the butt repeatedly?)  Now I don't think there's enough wood to square it up again.  This point in the build is only a day or so of work for most folks, but I have 70 hours invested so far; it's making me sick to think about starting over.  I've got nothing to lose so I'll square up everything else to the panel area and use Robbie's string method to strike a new centerline on the lower stock and see if it is at all salvageable.   

[Acer Saccharum]

As long as you have enough thickness thru the lock and side panels, you'll be able to square them up.

Believe me, the old guns are full of fudges. Your gun is not ruined by any means. Go slow, and look twice before removing wood. Once the wood is gone, you have a problem.

If you can get by with 'fairly square', then the barrel can be a little out with the panels and it doesn't make rat's whisker bit of difference to the eye later on.

Tom

[coopersdad]

Acer: I think I have enough thickness at the panels, as they are the only things now square with the barrel - it's the rest I'm concerned about.   I'll keep trying, but this sure gets frustrating!  Last build looks beautiful.  I messed up the stock design and it's so painful to shoot I'll never shoot it again... Iwouldn't have done any of it without this forum, though.  I don't post much but I'm here most every day for inspiration and to see I'm not the only one who goofs up!

[Robby]

Cooper, You need a little tweek of attitude. Problems are Oppertunities! Without problems, we would still be throwing rocks at animals hoping for a meal, and wearing thick stinky beards on hot muggy days, hoping for a breeze. Now, if I can just figure out how to get more time out of an hour. Now, go back and revisit thet first gun and make it shootable!
Robby

[Mark Elliott]

Don't worry about the forearm.   I have never gotten it all to line up perfectly.      I not even sure perfect is possible as the wood moves and twists on you.     The orginials didn't have stuff perfect.   They just smoothed everything out and made sure stuff looked right relative to each other.    If you start measuring them,  you will quickly learn that not a lot of measurement and planning when into those things.   They just put the gun together the way that looked right to them.   If you get it too perfect,  it looks machine made.

You do need to be careful when inletting not to twist the barrel in the inlet when you hammer it in for each fitting.    Also,  inletting the barrel with the breech plug in place can help, but you may still end up the stock and barrel out of square at the muzzle.    You just get it as close as you can.   The general rule of thumb is that EVERYTHING on the gun is relative to the barrel.   That is why you inlet it first.    So, it you get the barrel in the stock crooked, then everything else should be crooked to match.   When you are done and everything is crooked together,  it will all look fine.  

As to your situation now,  you might be able to square up your lock panels with the barrel.    If not,  the only way to fix the thing is start over with a new piece of wood.   I have done that a couple of times when I just didn't like the way things were going.   For me,  it is usually driliing the ramrod hole.   For some pieces of wood, I think they just don't want to be a gun stock(I have one gun that just doesn't seem to want to be), but usually, it is me being in too big of an hurry.   At 70 hours,  you really don't have that much in the gun and presumably, a lot of that was prep work on your mounts which you won't loose.  I had around 300 hours in the last gun I finished.  I am sure there are others on this board that have put way more than that in a gun.   Some pictures of what you have may help with recommendations.

[coopersdad]

I'll see about posting some photos tonight after work.   I appreciate the help!  I tend to get a bad case of oculo-rectalitis when things start going south, especially when I cause it.   

[Mark Elliott]

Coopersdad,

I didn't read you last post well enough.    Since, your lock panels are square with the barrel, I would say that is the best you can do in this situation except start over and that is up to you.   There are two schools of thought when it comes to starting over.   One is that as long as the gun is safe and functional,  move on to the next.   The other is to keep working on the gun(reworking as required) to get it right (or as right as you are capable at the time).     I started out with the first attitude.  Now,  I don't want anything leaving my shop that is not the very best that I can do.   That means that if I make a mistake that I can correct,  I correct it.  Rework is still work to applies toward you mastering the craft.   In fact, I think it may be the most valuable work since you are learning something new.    

Best,

Mark E

[Acer Saccharum]

Now that your side panels are square with the barrel, see if there is enough wood to square up the bottom with the sides. You only need to go a little past the middle of the underside with your squaring. Just enough of a flat to set the guard in. After the guard is in, the wood to either side of it will get rounded off anyway.

If the ramrod hole is very close to the underside, you may not have as much real estate as you'd like. This may be your limiting factor.

Next thing to look at is lock placement, if you have to take wood off the bottom line of the stock, make sure you can let your lock in and still leave enough room under the lock for set triggers, single trigger, whatever you plan on using.

If all those requirements can be met, you're on your way.

Good luck.
Tom

[coopersdad]

Well, after all my wailing and gnashing of teeth I think I can make this work.  I squared the trigger guard area with the lock side panel, ended up taking about 3/32 off one side.  Between this and squaring the panels, the center line there is off by about 1/8", with lock and sideplate panels a fat 1/16" thicker than when finished.  I'll try some photos.

Top view of tang area, all looks well and centered:




Underneath that, in the trigger guard area, difference in width from centerline, which is where I feared the triggerguard would be off center and the panels different widths.  May still be, but I think I can make it work after rounding things off?




I think I'll have enough meat under the lock.  The ramrod hole wandered up a bit, so that was lucky in this case.  So based on what you see am I good to go or am I missing something?

[Curtis]

Coopersdad,
Unless the gun is a lot more out of kilter than is apparent in the photos, I would just go with it.  IMHO you are over analyizing and just concerned about a "smideon".  Get after it and build that gun!

Curtis

[coopersdad]

Generally why it takes me so long.  Analyze 20 minutes, cut 2 minutes.... :)Thanks everyone for their help!  I intend to keep going for it and see what comes. 

[Mark Elliott]

Coopersdad,

I thought that you had the gun almost done!  You have barely started.    You don't have a problem.   You have got tons of wood left of that stock to take off.     Where you are is about 12 hours in for me.    You still have plenty of opportunities for really screwing up     It is good that you are taking your time, but I think that you are really over analyzing and being too particular.     What you have there looks great to me.     If you have the barrel in, the ramrod groove cut, and the ramrod hole drilled going up; then you are golden!    The ramrod hole is what I sweat bullets over; it breaking out the bottom. that is.   Going the other way,  it is perfectly Ok for it to break through into the barrel channel.   Plenty of fine old rifles have the ramrod hole breaking into the barrel channel at the breech.  Some gun makers like it that way in order to make a really slim gun.   It is also likely that you will break into the barrel channel and/or ramrod hole when you inlet for the mainspring in the lock.   This is normal, so don't panic when it happens.   

The thing that the new builder needs to guard against most is not taking off enough wood.   I layout the gun on the stock just as you have, but I cut just to the outside of the pencil line.   I mention that to indicate where you are heading.   I don't suggest that you do that at this point.   I just want to make sure you don't stop cutting too early and not to worry so much about having taken too much off to make a correction.   

Now,  get to work that lock.

Mark E.
   

[Daryl]

I see a standard stock blank with the barrel only inlet, no shaping - am I missing something?