Re-hardening a Traditions flintlock frizzen??

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I have a friend who was given or traded for a Traditions 45 Cal Flintlock rifle. Overall it looks in good shape but it doesn't spark worth a darn. I tried and tried and we got it to fire only twice. I suggested to him to replace the lock but I think he's running scared.

My question is would it worth the trouble to reharden the frizzen on this lock or is the lock really junk?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have only seen a couple of Traditions' flintlocks, and they were of surprisingly good quality.  I'd say the lock is definitely salvageable, and may not need anything more than soaking in an oven at 375 for an hour.  If that fails, reharden and retemper it.  If that fails, case harden it.  You can do it all in one evening.
A lady friend of mine has a Pededsoli flinter, that was giving her grief.  I enlarged the pan's area, polished the internals a bit, and re-hardened/re-tempered the frizzen.  It is a tiny lock, and needs a very sharp flint, but now it is a good sparker.

[bob in the woods]

I have fixed 3 of them. Exactly as Taylor said.  The pans definitely benefit from enlarging, and polishing the internals helps a lot. I rehardened the frizzen on one only. The other 2 were fine. Take note....
all 3 guns had sawn flints. That is the ones that are sold by blister pack of 2 or 3 at outrageous prices.
When I replaced them with good sharp English flints, the 2 locks threw great sparks, and the 1 , not bad.
I would check the flint first, before anything else.

[zimmerstutzen]

call Deer Creek for a new frizzen, nearly all Traditions frizzens were also used on CVA guns.

reharden it with Kasenit,

 half sole it with a piece of thin clock spring.  Roughen the clock spring on the outer curve side smear the inside curve of the frizzen with epoxy and the outer curve of the spring and clamp together for 24 hours.  Carefully grind the excess back to the edges of the frizzen. So as not to heat the spring stock.  I have done that with a half dozen TC frizzens and to my knowledge they are all still in service.

First however, you didn't say what flint he is using.  If he is trying those machined cut flints, try English flints first.  Sometimes the English flints work far better than those cut flints.  

[Habu]

Before re-hardening it, I'd try cleaning up the face of the frizzen.  I don't know how Traditions hardens their frizzens, but I've had enough trouble with frizzen faces over the years, the first thing I try is to clean up the face on a sanding wheel (usually the front roller on my belt sander).  Use the usual precautions about not over-heating, etc.

Sometimes the face gets de-carburized (I think that's the term) and won't spark for beans.  Dressing a little off the face exposes the underlying metal. 

Jim

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

he was using a cut flint, but I replaced it with an English flint but it didn't seem to help.  I'm going to ask him for the rifle to try a couple things. If it don't work I'll be back.

[David R. Watson]

Years ago - 30+ - I got hold to several sheets of depleted uranium and had two installed on L&R locks. The stuff could not be soldered, but could only be either dovetailed or epoxied to the frizzen.
You would not believe - unless you tried it - how much spark is generated. I have seen them hit the ground from an offhand position.
I don't think it is readily available now that it is used in the 23MM and 30MM cannons. You can see the sparks fly when it hits armor.
The only down side that I see is that when I read in bed at night I don't need a reading light - the soft glow makes for easy reading.

[zimmerstutzen]

i had a trade gun with one of those "nuclear frizzens"   it would drop bright blue sparks that would dance in the pan for five or six seconds.

[T*O*F]

Traditions flint locks are $#@*.  They are too small and poorly designed.  They require very short flints which are bashed against the frizzen leading to short flint life.  The frizzens don't always kick over when fired, among other problems.

Have your friend do himself a favor and replace it with an RPL lock.  Otherwise he'll become frustrated and give up shooting flintlocks.

[zimmerstutzen]

which model is it?

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Have your friend do himself a favor and replace it with an RPL lock.  Otherwise he'll become frustrated and give up shooting flintlocks.

What's an RPL lock??

which model is it?

I think he called it a pennsylvania full stock.

[SCLoyalist]

RPL is the name of a line of replacement locks offered by L&R:

http://lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=36&Itemid=62

Getting the frizzen sparking is apt to become an exercise in old-time gunsmithing and possibly in frustration.  You can probably solve the problem by throwing money at it by replacing the lock with an RPL lock, or you can send the whole lock off and get it 'tuned'  (I have a friend who went that route with a Pedersoli lock; sent it to Cabin Creek, and now the lock works well, but it did cost him about the same as a new lock would have).

If you decide to try case hardening, or rehardening, or re-soling, I'd suggest looking through the archives for threads discussing how to do it.   Some of these operations require getting the frizzen to a temperature beyond what's easily obtainable with a propane torch.     A few years ago, I tinkered with an L&R Frizzen, got it sparking better,  at least for about 500 shots when it shattered and broke in half during a match.   I probably used the wrong quench and/or didn't draw the brittleness out of it.   Anyway, the point is, there are metalurgical issues you need to be aware of.

Good luck, SCL

[Daryl]

1st thing I'd do, as as Taylor suggested - polish it, then soak it in the oven on a tin plate for an hour at 375, then turn of the oven. It should turn a very light weak brownish colour - done.

[camerl2009]

ive done it to my traditions deerhunter just like Taylor said re-harden and re-temper

the locks work nice after there broken in just keep a nice flint in it 

[Leatherbelly]

Traditions flint locks are $#@*.  They are too small and poorly designed.  They require very short flints which are bashed against the frizzen leading to short flint life.  The frizzens don't always kick over when fired, among other problems.

Have your friend do himself a favor and replace it with an RPL lock.  Otherwise he'll become frustrated and give up shooting flintlocks.

Dave,you're too nice!  LOL These and a couple of others would qualify as entrants to the "Long Gun Toss". Catagories and rules for such by request only!

[Captchee]

Im going to agree with T*O*F on this one .
 
 the locks are junk . There isn’t a whole lot on them that isn’t to soft  .  many times the geometry is just  plain sad as well  .
 in fact thats  an understatement .
 Now do they work , Ya some do  but I have yet to meet a person who replaced the complete lock who didn’t wonder  how they ever got along .. And that includes those who think  their lock works fine .
IMO your chasing a dead cat . 

 As to your problem . It could be  the frizzen  or it could be  that the springs just arnt doing their jobs.
 Can you do  resole the frizzen  ya .
Sometimes even re tempering will work for a time . But don’t be surprised  if  your right back to square one .
 As was mentioned . You could also send the lock off and have it properly tuned .
 But frankly there is only so much one can do .
 If your lucky the tuning job will last . If not , don’t blame the person who tuned it up .
 IMO your friend should cut his losses . Spring for the cost  of an RPL.
Save the time , money and heartache for it will cost you less in the long run .
 Once  the lock has been replaced , you can get on with the fun of shooting  instead of constantly fighting  and spending time on  a poor quality lock .

 Let me also say this . If learning  to fix this lock   is the goal .  Then have at it . The knowledge gained even if you fail ,is worth a lot in its self .
 But if it comes down to replacing pats .  Your going to have been better off IMO to take the cost of that frizzen and applied it to a Far , Far better lock 
 Just my 2 cents

[arcticap]

Midway sells a replacement Traditions frizzen for $15.79:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=158888

[ironwolf]

  Don't kasenit a frizzen.  Just makes a hard surface that wears right off,  then you're back to where you started.  Been there, done that.

  Kevin

[SCLoyalist]

Midway sells a replacement Traditions frizzen for $15.79:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=158888

That might be well worth the investment.   The description says it's hardened already.   If it works, problem solved.   If not, then you have a test platform to try, without risking ruining the original frizzen,  more labor intensive approaches, like half-soling.