.600 RB in .62 Sharron Barrel

[David R. Watson]

The offer for soapstone bullet molds in .600 started me to wonder if I could use the .600 in my loading block for follow up shots in my .62 flinter.
Right now I'm shooting .610 BR with .020 pillow ticking for the initial load and the same size ball with .010 patching in the loading block. I lube the block with 3:1 mutton tallow/unrefined bee's wax and push the load so that it is slightly below the block to give me an index on the barrel. The .010 has a slight browning on the patch, but doesn't burn through - even with 180FF by volume of FF.
There is a saying - if it ain't broke....- I would just like to try it if ya'll think it would work...

[Daryl]

David - why do you feel the need to use an even looser combination for the second shot? Does your barrel foul with the first one making it difficult to load with the next?

Some relief in that can be had with paper ctgs.  Some of us here have found a tight paper ctg. can shoot as well as a cloth patched ball, yet allow up to dozen shots be made before a 'cleaning' shot has to be fired.  I use paper ctgs. for back-up shots when moose hunting in extremely cold climates as in -40 which leaves most greases thick and stiff. The paper ctg. gave me identical accuracy as normal patched ball and also allowed a hard (WW) ball to be used. Bruce, Dan and Buffalo Hunter also tried them with good results.

[David R. Watson]

My bust!- the barrel is rifled at 1:72. I can get the combo in for one or two shots, but have to use the short starter even with the .010 patching. I'm just envisioning a much easier load with .020 patching to ship the short starter.
As I said earlier - I can easily make due with what I have now, but the .600 appeals to me.

[Daryl]

That's intersting.

Taylor has a .62 and loads the 50th or 100th as easily as the first.  Only 2 or 3 fingers are needed on the rod after it's started, which takes a split second itself.  Yes - he uses a short starter - as we cannot load a combination that seals without one. We all use starters - this is not a big deal to us and it's as fast or faster than not using one. Having the ball 5" down the tube before the rod is put on it, makes pushing it down easier and is safer for the rod as well.

Of course, use whatever suits your loading method.

[David R. Watson]

I have always used a short starter, but the .600 started me thinking which is dangerous in itself.
After the fourth shot the loading becomes somewhat more difficult and during a match I can shoot the five for score plus two for sighters if needed.
I'd be interested in the lub as sometimes I have gone the entire season in TN and have never fired the flinter. I load with a clean unlubed patch and really oil the barrel behind it to prevent rust. I kept the touch hole sealed with beeswax when i wasn't hunting.
The first Sunday in Feb we use to have a one shot offhand match at 200 yards for a modest amount of cash. A misfire is your shot - no second chance. We very seldom had anyone who had a misfire as loading it in October was anal to say the least.
Ed Mason, a very accomplished gunsmith in Memphis, took his Deacon 12 Bore shotgun and added a British .50 cal MG barrel that was used to test the accuracy of various lots of British ammo during WW11. He made the mold which was around 600+ grains and pre-rifled the projectiles with a short piece of the MG barrel. This gave my .62 flinter fits at 200, but the offhand made it somewhat even.

[Daryl]

I shot pre-rifled Lyman 460gr. slugs (section of the barrel) in a fast twist .50 Bauska barrel in the '70's. It shot moa for me at 100 yards off the bags - open iron sights.  Pre-rifling works if you have a method of carrying them unharmed and greased.  I did not have to wipe the bore during a 5 or 10 shot group. The mould carried very nice deep, square grooves - a discontinued mould I found in Smithers in 1972.

[bob in the woods]

I use the tapered paper cartridges per Daryl, in my .62 cal E.M.rifle [ Chambers ]  with excellent results.
I carry the cartridges for moose and bear hunting, since they are very fast to load, and accuracy is great.
At the range, when testing, I used a wet denim cloth patched ball after every 7 rounds to clean the barrel out-just because 7 is the number of shots we shoot per target.
I'm not certain if Daryl lubes his cartidges, but I dip mine in a mix of beeswax and bear oil.

[Leatherbelly]

 Make your hunting block for three or more follow ups. Three sounds about right. I'd use the same ball and patch.Just relube them in the block as needed. I'm going to try neetsfoot oil and  maybe some mink oil.
  I like short starting. Just safer. No shards of hickory impaling thru flesh and bone. @!*% the smashed fingers!   Use your shortstarter with your hunting block too. Reminds me,I need a couple of blocks.

[Daryl]

I haven't lubed my paper ctgs. - yet, but have carried some of mine in my parka pocket for an entire season - without damage tothem.

Every 10 shots, I load a 3 dram charge of 2F, a slobbering wet .025" patch and normal pure lead .682" ball. Upon discharge,t he barrel will allso another 10 shots with paper ctgs, giving the same accuracy as with a patched ball - at 100 yards and into the same group. I am talking about 1 1/2" for 6 shots - 1/2 patched, 1/2 paper ctg.- both 165gr. 2F - one set of 3 dry paper - the other 3 with patches soaked in mink oil then gently squeezed out.

The paper is such as to engrave the rifling when I load it. I do not need a short starter if I choke way up on the rod and very carefully get it started. Like CB say.s it is safer to start it with a starter. It adds only a second to loading time.

With practise, I have fired (time starts on shot) then load and fired an aimed shot that hits an 8" gong at 50 yards in 8 seconds total time, including capping.  This is how I plunked in the finishing shot on a 95 yard moose - my first with this rifle. At the first shot, which went through 50yards of willow trees, only broke the onside leg expanding quite flat and stopped against the ribs, not penetrating the rib cage. He staggered at the shot and turned around while I loaded. I moved 2 steps and took the second shot which only hit a few willow. That WW ball broke off a 6" chunk of 2 1/2"wide  X 7/16" thick rib and drove that downward through both lungs to stick between 2 ribs on the offside. The WW ball went straight across, making 3" to 4" holes thorugh both lungs, smashed the leg 'again', but higher close to the shoulder wheer the leg is 3" in diameter, then stopped against the hide. The ball, nonhardened, appeared to be re-loadable.  Ordinary WW is tough.

Had I not hit those 1" willow's I'm sure the ball would have exited. Paper ctgs. as described, are accurate. As loaded in the 19th and 18th centuries, they were anything but.

For a large bore, they are a definitely GREAT idea.  I've been told they work down to .54 calibre.  At some point, the excessive pressure of the smaller bores, will disallow their use as they'll catch fire and blow out, destroying accuracy.

The wadded up paper between the powder and ball insulates the ball from the flame and seals the gasses behind it.  The picked up chunks of paper will usually show rifling marks, no scorching and deginitely no burning - or the paper is too thin or ball too small for the load. This system allows loading without trouble in extremely cold conditons and negates lubing problems while hunting.

[David R. Watson]

Man I love this site! I have absolutely no idea what ya'll are talking about with the paper patches.
I have seen this with muskets and with smoothbores and have used it in my Rigby long range gun, but never with a patched RB.
Please describe the process as for some reason I cannot visualize it.
Is the paper acting as a cloth patch around the ball? After I hit post it will probably come to me and I'll wish I could recall it...nothing like exposing one's ignorance to the entire world especially when most are experts.
I went back and reread the posts and still do not grasp the concept.

[Daryl]

We're here to help- to pass on what works for us. Hopefully, some of it will work for others. I had forgotten about Bob using the tapered paper ctgs. I assume this is something he experimented with last year- and found useful.

The reason I make them tapered, is for easier handling and inserting into the muzzle & lerss loss in powder when tearing off the to expose the powder.  The small end gets ripped off with the teeth, then shoved into the muzzle, pointy end down. It will stop at the ball. By the time you have the rod out, the powder will have dribbled out & down the tube. Push what now amounts to a paper patched ball down the bore. As indicatedd prior, the rifling should be engraving the patch some in order to maintain accuracy. Shove the ball down to the powder and replace the rod into the pipes, cap or prime and it's ready to shoot.  It is important to shove the whole ctg. down the bore as the paper is needed, I 'assume' to keep the powder gasses in check and to protect the paper patching around the ball from blowby, which would ruin accuracy. Logic tells us this is so.

These are my tapered ctgs., in particular, these were for an India pattern Bess, with a failry light powder charge- 100gr.


This is the French direction page for making paper ctgs. I make mine in a similar fashion, but use a tapered dowel- and instead of string, I use white glue or school stick glue. The white glue is stronger and more permanent, I think.  Like the French ctg. I do not put anything between the ball and powder. The ball and folded and glued paper over the ball will keep the powder where it should stay.


Shown also , is the English ctg.

[David R. Watson]

I never in a million years would think the paper could withstand the trama associated with this...live and learn.
What kind of paper are ya'll using? Would you first soak it in a nitrate solution similar to matches on matchlocks? How close to bore size would the ball be? I have a .610 mold.
I'm excited over this - keeps me off the streets...
I'm headed to Williamsburg in a few minutes for the first time - really looking forward to it.

[Daryl]

The .610" should work - with 20 or 24 pound paper, I'd think. No nitrate - you do not want to start fires- in fact the paper should have some fouling on it, and that's all.  Due to the pressures involved, ball/bore size is limited. I highly suspect a .45 cal, making 15,000 to 20,000psi or more, would not work with this system. The larger the bore, the better the chance of success.  Most of the bore guns operate under 10,000 to 12,000.  At this level, the paper ctgs. seem to work well.

Have fun in Williamsburg.

[bob in the woods]

Daryl.and all- I copied the tapered concept since it made loading much easier. As said, tear off the bootom, insert in bore. It just sits there and drains powder, unlike the straight sided cartridges which required fiddling and shaking, etc. While it drains you are free to draw the ram rod.  This method makes for the fastest reloading I've found.  I use these cartridges in my .62 rifle, and my 10 bore New England fowler.
I haven't tried them in a .54 or smaller yet

[Larry Pletcher]

Daryl,
I haven't tried a paper cartridge before, but think I might with a Rice .54.  In determining the paper size, how many layers of paper surround the ball. When paper patching a LRML bullet it gets 2 layers.  Is that true with your ball patches?

As far as length of paper I assume that depends on the amount of powder, but the amount of taper must also figure into this too.  Any guide lines here?

Removing the tapered stick looks interesting.  Do you glue the paper, remove the ball and stick through the large end, and then re-insert the ball?

Regards,
PLetch

[Daryl]

Good questions, all.  Love it.

1st thing I did was to make my tapered dowel.  For me, it was a hit and miss operation. I think I had to make 2 altogether.  I use hemlock 1" dowel - was easy tapering with a pocket knife, spoke shave, draw knife or rasp - any of these.
I make the tubes up, gluing the overlap wrap, setting them aside.  After they're dry, I turn over the very end and glue, or - tie with 3-ought fly tying thread and trim - I've done both.  Then, I measure (stricken) my powder charge and dump that in, drop a ball (sprue filed off, on top, fold the paper over, glue then twist and snip it off with sissors, or tie - your choice.

As Bob found, the tapered 'stick' of powder and ball just sits on the muzzle,waiting to be shoved down.

I used 2 wraps of paper - it has to be snug in the bore, slightly engraving on the lands. I need to choke up on the rod to only 1" out, to start it without a starter - note - it is snug - by the sounds of it, tighter than some guys shoot with cloth patches.

I do not know if it will work well for in deep grooved barrels - rounded or squarish.  it works great in smoothbores and my .012" deep squarish bottomed rifling.  My hunting firend has a .75 that Taylor built using the Purdey plan form Track that has a .025" deep rifling in it. It has never shot as well as my rifle with shallower rifling. Keith is every bit as good a shot- probably better so that isn't why.  He can only load and fire 3 ctgs. before he has to wipe or shoot a squib - CLEANING load, like 82gr. The deep rifling seems to foul badly.  I haven't tried to help Keith with this loading problem as he's happy with the 3 shots over his patched first shot.

He's used more than 1 - once. His second and third shots were on another hunter's wounded moose. First shot of Keith's dropped his moose on the spot- typlical for a 595gr. ball through the lights. Jeff's moose took a couple steps and stopped, he fired his .50, moose took off like it was scaulded, which is also normal. We didnt' know, but his shot was low on the leg- no penetration.  Keith's paper patched shot on the running moose was too far back, but stopped it- brakes on full. Jeff couldn't load a second shot as his patches were frozen in the -35 temps, so Keith finished it, mere seconds later, with his second paper ctg. ball shot.  Gotta love the big bores.

[Daryl]

In re-thinking this, perhaps 3 layers would  help with deep grooves - or with smaller bores. Certainly wouldn't hurt to test this.

[Larry Pletcher]

I got a couple made, but wont know about fit until I get a chance to try them.  I turned the taper on a lathe. Just made sure the taper was long enough. I have with the taper and the paper i'm using, a 100 gr load leaves a nice looking cartridge. I suspect that by folding over more at the small end these would work with 90 just as well.

It looks like you could adjust the barrel fit by varying ball size, paper thickness, or number of wraps around the ball.  If working up a load for a cloth patched took time, this looks more work. I'll start with 20# paper, two wraps and both .530 and .535 balls.  When the paper doesn't burn, i'll play with powder.

[Daryl]

Any burning, to me, is a failure.  Confette is fine - chunks of paper OK, but no burning with my ctgs.

 Mine were 2 wraps as noted and the balls were .006" smaller (WW @ .684") than the bore(.690") that's smaller by .003" per side.  If paper thickness is taken as .003"- then the patch on the sides of the ball was .006" thick, = making for .003" engraving in the lands all the way around the ball (per side) - (.012" total as .006" per side X 2).  The only way it could seal the charge, is with the huge amount of paper formthe rest of the ctg. wadded up between the ball and powder, which acted quite well to contain the pressure and flame, obviously.

[Larry Pletcher]

Daryl,
My guess is that two wraps of a .535 ball will be alright.  I thought also about 3 wraps with a .530. either way my tapered paper column will hold somewhere in the neighborhood of 100+ grains of ffg by volume. Haven't weighed anything.  I set the cartridge in the muzzle and it stopped at the ball. I didn't go farther because I won't get to shoot til this weekend.  By that time i'll have made a few using both ball sizes.
Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

good luck