under hammer

[frenchman]

Gents just made an interesting trade for this under hammer

.45 cal , 32 inch barrel and very clean
Hopkins & Allen improve
Challanger mfq corp
model Heritage
don't know the twist yet
are the sights original , i doubt the back one.
What ever else info would be greatly appreciated.

[kutter]

From what I remember, and it usually isn't much!,,after Numrich Arms stopped making the underhammer guns (and some other M/L with the H&A name on them), Numrich sold the remaining parts (tooling?) and the H&A name rights.

I was told a gentleman from NJ by the name of Goodwin or Goodman (?) bought the package and assembled or had assembled and built a number of the underhammers.
I believe the rifle you have is one of those.

His rifles have the Challenger brand name and 'H&A Improved' marking.
I've seen the Challenger marked ones with a Maine address and the Mt Vernon NY  address.
I was led to believe they were built under the same ownership,,but could be wrong.
Maybe there's been more than 1 maker of the 'Improved H&A'

Others may have more correct and better info.

The H&A name was later sold to the gentleman that owns DeerRun Muzzle Loaders in Indiana I believe.

Nice, simple rifles.

[frenchman]

great start of info thanks Kutter

[smokinbuck]

Frenchman,
Not sure about the "Challenger" name but Kutter could be right. The model that came after all else was put on the market by Deer Creek out of Waldron, Indiana who is still in business and are great folks. I know that they have quit making the action castings but still have parts. the biggest difference in theirs and the original is that they have 3 set screws that allow the barrel to be removed rather than the 1 drift pin. These are probably the simplest rifles that have ever been made and can be tuned to be very good shooters. It appears that both of your sights have been replaced, unless Challenger used different sights than Hopkins & Allen or Numrich Arms. I have a number of tese actions with shotgun barrels, chunk gun barrels and offhand barrels on them.
Mark

[frenchman]

Thank Mark,
 has i was taking it appart i could imagine all the possibilities  that this gun has.Should be fun.
Is the Allen screw under the trigger for adjustment or only for holding the spring.

[smokinbuck]

Frenchman,
Saw your question  on the other site. I think the set screw is for adjusting the triger by altering the depth that the triger enters the hammer full cock notch. I have never seen one on any of the dozen or so of these rifles that i have or have owned. Also see my note on plug removal.
Mark

[frenchman]

Hi  Mark
do you have the action with allen screws if so could you send me a picture of the plug. I could modify the action for the allen screws and would be better for when i would add barrels to it

[smokinbuck]

Frenchman,
I do have both actions but if you see my post to your question under "gun building" it may answer your question. I don't have an unused plug to photograph. The easiest way to make one will be to take an appropriate sized bolt, 5/8, 3/4 etc, based on your caliber, cut it to the correct length and turn one end down to fit the action, which should be +/- 5/8.
Mark

[kutter]

I found a little more info, not much, on the H&A name.

This from Charles Carders book on Hopkins & Allen Single Shots (1995).

Marlin owned the H&A name till after WW2 having bought the bankrupt company in full in 1921.
Marlin sold the name to George Numrich in the latter 40's.
After (George) Numrich owned the name and had built and imported M/L with that name including the underhammer, it was sold to a fellow by the name of Hank Goodman.
No mention of a date.

Goodman was from NJ.  He imported and sold M/L and parts with the H&A name on them.
Carder does not mention the 'Challenger' brand. He only states that Goodman imported under the H&A name.
That's where my info is different (see above post), but it all came to me from a few others involved in Single Shots,,so I can't fault it. Just part of the puzzle I guess.

Carder does not list any additional owners of the H&A name other than Goodman and the present owner,,,Erwin Fagel of Indiana who mfg's M/L rifles.
This is the Deer Creek Muzzle Loader company(?) I'm guessing,,I called it Deer Run before and believe it's actually Deer Creek.
Again, no date of the transfer of ownership

No mention of Mt.Vernon or  Maine bbl addresses,Challenger or 'H&A Improved ' markings,,,but some additional info to store away.
Good for somethin' even if you never use it!

[frenchman]

Kutter ,Thanks you so much, i am very please with the information given to me.
I intend to keep it with it's data book.
If some of my friends ask question it will be on hand.
If you have some more info in the future sent it by me and i will add it to the book.