Author Topic: Longrange muzzleloader?  (Read 8070 times)

ottawa

  • Guest
Longrange muzzleloader?
« on: September 29, 2011, 02:37:27 PM »
what makes up a longrang muzzle loader? type of barrle, trigger ? thinking of 300 to 400yards can any rifle work if the right load is worked up?

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9879
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2011, 03:20:18 PM »
what makes up a longrang muzzle loader? type of barrle, trigger ? thinking of 300 to 400yards can any rifle work if the right load is worked up?

Basically you need a bullet barrel. 18 to 20" twist in a 45. 22-24 in a 50.
The Pedersoli Gibbs is the cheapest way to do this and it shoots well from what I have read. Many competitors use them for 1000 yards.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_1/rifles-gibbs.html
http://www.possibleshop.com/rifle-gibbs.html
But they are not particularly practical for a stalking rifle for hunting since the bullets may not stay on the powder all that well.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2011, 05:43:42 PM »
what makes up a longrang muzzle loader? type of barrle, trigger ? thinking of 300 to 400yards can any rifle work if the right load is worked up?

Basically you need a bullet barrel. 18 to 20" twist in a 45. 22-24 in a 50.
The Pedersoli Gibbs is the cheapest way to do this and it shoots well from what I have read. Many competitors use them for 1000 yards.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_1/rifles-gibbs.html
http://www.possibleshop.com/rifle-gibbs.html
But they are not particularly practical for a stalking rifle for hunting since the bullets may not stay on the powder all that well.
Dan

Dan is referring to walking and carrying the rifle. If the muzzle is pointed down, the bullet can move forward and/or fall from the muzzle. I have seen this myself with a rifle loaded with a TC Maxiball. Noticed it poking our a hunting partner's muzzle as we walked along.

If this happens and the rifle is shot, the slug becomes an obstruction, not a projectile - the barrel rings, or blows at the obstruction.

 For this reason, slugs never caught on for hunting with muzzleloaders - slugs became popular in hunting rifles after the invention of fixed ammunition.  Prior, they were used in military rifles (muzzle-up carry by foot soldiers) or for target shooting. One of the complaints of slugs in mounted soldier military rifles was the probability of them losing their load while the soldier was riding, This is mentioned often in "Firearms of the American West 1805 - 1865" with a variety of early muzzleloading rifles used with bullets and some with paper ctg. round ball loads.

To shoot with any accuracy at the longer ranges with a round ball, a very large calibre with heavy loads pretty much needs to be used.

 

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2011, 07:16:54 PM »
There may be more interest in Long range ML shooting over in the UK than on this side of the pond.   The Muzzleloaders Assoc. of Great Britain (mlagb.com) might be a good place to look for info.   A quick perusal turned up some good words about Parker-Hale Volunteer & Whitworth rifles, and Pedersoli Gibbs, for shooting at the 400 to 1000 yd distances.

If you can find the match results of some long-range matches that include equipment used by the winners, that might allow you to look up the specs of those guns and see what common characteristics they share. 

And, NMLRA holds slug gun matches out to 400 or 500 yds.  Those guns are pretty heavy barreled.  The old NMLRA book 'Shooting and Winning with the Champs' has a 10 page chapter on slug guns.  However, slug guns weigh up around 30 lbs, whereas a Gibbs Pedersoli goes about 12 lbs, so they're obviously made for different 'flavors' of long-range shooting.

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2011, 07:58:00 PM »
I'd forgotten about the the Parker Hale rifles - woner if those guys buy the platinum lined nipples ($80.00) like the picket-bullet shooters do here.

ottawa

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2011, 11:36:03 PM »
just reading my post I was thinking on a roundball  rifle I didn't clarify that sorry . I received a .45 plains rifle(I think) it has a heavy barrel and is reported to hit in the black of a 24'' bull at 300 yards with a 125gr bullet and a 120gr charge no X's and no group. it was done just for fun . thinking a leg mite be getting pulled oops not 125gr but 225 I think it was a TC maxi dont know the grain weight
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 04:34:47 AM by ottawa »

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2011, 11:44:15 PM »
125gr. is about a .440" round ball for a .45 cal. rifle.  120gr. is more powder than most people would try to use in a .45.

I'd have to see that one.

I've seen people hit a gong at 200+yards offhand, using a .45 - even a .40. Saw it once with a smoothbore in .20 bore.

I've never seen a person do it twice in a row, offhand or benched for that matter.  I'd like to see it done, though.

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2011, 01:28:04 AM »
300 yds with a roundball is pretty mind-boggling.  The ballistics tables say that 125 grains powder should give you around 2000 fps muzzle velocity.   You'd have an extra 10 feet of drop or bullet path to manage compared to shooting at a 200 yd target.

NMLRA metallic silhouette matches shoot at steel bear targets  (13X35")  at 200 yds, and those targets can be hit and knocked down pretty regularly (the trick being there's no wind, that you know the distance is exactly 200 yds, and you've practiced enough to know what sight picture to hold).   I could believe 300 yds, with practice & ideal conditions, and with a good set of adjustable sights, but there sure wouldn't be much energy left in that poor roundball.


Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2011, 02:16:55 AM »
I had forgotten this bit of long range shooting - when we were young, Taylor and I used to shoot at a light coloured chunk of granite in the middle of a large V shaped spread of very dark, almost black earth. The rock was between about 15" and 20" in diameter and was about 325yards distance.  It was difficult to tell it's exact size, but over the course of a summer, we managed to cover it with lead.

 It was elevated slightly form line of sight, about 20 degrees, and paced, about 315 yards/or meters (long steps) to the base of the granite face to the firing line.  My paces when doing this come out very close to my range finder. I'm usually in the middle between yards and meters.  The rock was up around 60 to 75 feet above the ground on the granite face in a V of dirt filling a depression, back a bit form the front edge = perhaps 25 to 30feet, hense the "about" 325yards range we called the shot.

We were able to hit it often with my .50 cal. Plains Rifle, Taylors .62 Hawken and my wifes' .36 Seneca with 128gr. slugs. I could not hit it with the .36 RBalls though - no idea where they were going, but suffice to say, I could have been in that dirt but couldn't see the strikes. We were able to walk our shots up onto the rock - easier than mere guessing.  I'd forgotten about this 'feat' we used to do 'at will', when I posted the statement above.

Of course, neither of us shoot that well, today however I did manage about a 4' square steel plate, 2 out of 3 shots at around 300yards, offhand, with my .69, at Hefley Creek Rondy. Wind was a definite problem at that range.  With the .58 Double Rifle, I came close, but no cigar. I say 'about' as when we measured it, we are 'about' 75 yards behind that firing line and off to one side a ways.  It ranged 408yards on the 1,200yard Leica range finder.

black ed

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 04:09:19 AM »
Daryl,
Many a year ago at a shoot in Packwood Wa we had a miss and out shoot ot a 12"x20" triangle of plate metal hung on a snag in the middle of the river.Started out at 100 yards and final shots about 210 yards. Last 2 shooters were myself using a 62cal at 120 gr ff and a gentalman shooting a 45.
I do not know his load. We each hit it twice at 210 yd and I missed 3 round and he did not.
 I've seen a few really long shots with a 62.
Large ball and lots of powder.....
Ed

zimmerstutzen

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2011, 04:24:04 AM »
large ball will carry further and buck wind better at medium ranges.  I don't know if it is even possible to launch a 45 round ball past 500 yds.  Between air resistance and gravity even if shooting up at a 40 degree angle. 


ottawa

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2011, 04:36:31 AM »
so round ball no . bullet of some sort yes ? and exstra nipples if bullet use

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2011, 04:44:33 PM »
The stainless nipples are apparently good for 10 shots or so with heavy bullet loads - according to the bullet shootes. Even a 400gr. with only 70gr. of powder produces about 18,000psi. The heavier bullets with more powder, generate more pressure - to the tune of 30,000psi. When the pressure elevates, the open breeches of muzzleloaders show their weakness.  Vents burn out more quicly, as-do nipples. It doesn't take much enlargement to cause a big loss in accuracy.  When I shot bullets in a cap-lock, I used Uncle Mikes (I think) stainless nipples and changed them every hundred shots or so. I was using 2f powder up to about 85gr. with 400gr. bullets in a .50.  As I was mostly target shooting with them, I had a good eye on accuracy loss.

edited for clarity
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 07:04:55 PM by Daryl »

Online Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 12:49:34 AM »
Daryl,
My experience has been like others.  I used a stainless steel nipple to start with.  With a 540 gr PP swaged bullet and 85 gr ffg I had a target going that would make 1.3" at 100yds through 4 shots.  The fifth shot was 10 inches away. After that I couldn't keep them on a basketball.  Replacing the nipple with platinum brought the group back.  I'm not sure I had 10 full power loads through the gun when it happened. (Maybe I need to stick with flintlocks.) Suppose that same thing would happen to a flintlock vent if installed in a flint long range bullet gun?? ;D
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4558
Re: Longrange muzzleloader?
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 03:34:47 AM »
I built a flintlock longrange bullet gun in .45 cal with 1/18 twist. Riley Smith [Long Hammock ] made the barrel for me. I shot the gun in the 1000 yd matches in Ottawa, and found that the vent was good for one target ie  2 sighters, then 10 for score.  530 gr PP bullet and 80 gr FFg.  I found out that trying to make a vent last through 2 targets resulted in vertical stringing first, ie shots dropping low, then accuracy went altogether.  I built that gun to
p*ss off the guys running the match, since they insisted on registration varification for rifles used.
[ flintlocks do not require registration here....caplocks do. ]   Anyway, I found it to be practical out to about 700 yds or so. Berylium vents from Dixie is what I used. I still shoot that gun today, but with patched .445 round balls and 25 gr FFFg  . Really accurate. It's won a few matches for me ;D   Like shooting subsonic .22 rounds !  Never thought about platinum vents. Maybe I'll try that one day.