Fish and cross symbol on old flintlock rlfle with the name R. Foor (not B. Foote

[sirdutch]

Hello,

Has anyone heard of a gun maker by the name of B. Foote or heard of rifled flintlocks marked as such? My friend has a rifled flintlock that he offered to sell me with that name on it in .45 caliber (by measurement, it is not marked as to caliber).  It also has a Christian fish and cross symbol engraved on it I hope to post pictures as soon as my buddy is well enough to get it out. (He had a serious surgery) I've seen the rifle only several times over the years and since it is in his personal collection, I never looked at it with an eye as to it's collector value or to look for proof marks and such. It is "dressed up" with symmetrically placed tacks such as if it were once owned by an Indian back in the day. An Indian trade rifle perhaps? It has double triggers with one being a set trigger. My buddy says it is an authentic rifle. If it isn't then him and I have both been fooled. I have been advised to look at the wood to metal fit as wood shrinks over time and that might clear up some questions as to its authenticity. I will post pics as soon as I can. I really should wait to post this when I have pics to post but I guess I just can't wait. I am in the dark as to flintlock rifles which is why I joined your fine forum. It is a beautiful piece in beautiful condition with a fine wood stock but I'm not sure if it is an authentic looking replica or the real McCoy. If anyone has any tips as to how to identify an old antique as opposed to a great replica, please let me know. It is not marked "black powder only"or any of the other obvious markings of modern production firearms. Thanks to all for any help.

Update on info:

As I don't have access to this rifle because of my friend recuperating from surgery and his collection is stored elsewhere, I don't have pictures as of yet. However, the name inscribed on the rifle is R. Foor and not B. Foote as described above. In my conversation by phone with him today, He describes the rifle as a Pennsylvania  rifle. It is a very slim rifle. It doesn't have a patch box. It has an outcropping like a cheek rest on the left side of the stock. The stock is a curly maple.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

1. Take it to someone who is a recognized collector. Where are you located; there will be CLA or KRA members in the area who will help you. Get a few opinions.
or
2. Pictures, particularly with some of the metal parts removed ( butt plate, lock, etc).

There is a reported "J. Foote" , gunsmith in PA and Wisconsin.

[Fullstock longrifle]

Welcome to the forum sirdutch, post some pictures of the rifle when you can, that will probably get an answer to your question pretty quick.

FK

[sirdutch]

Update on info:

As I don't have access to this rifle because of my friend recuperating from surgery and his collection is stored elsewhere, I don't have pictures as of yet. However, the name inscribed on the rifle is R. Foor and not B. Foote as described above. In my conversation by phone with him today, He describes the rifle as a Pennsylvania  rifle. It is a very slim rifle. It doesn't have a patch box. It has an outcropping like a cheek rest on the left side of the stock. The stock is a curly maple. There are no other identifying marks any where else on the rifle other than the name, fish symbol and the cross.I will post pics when I can.

All the best,

Maynard

[vtbuck223]

Sirdutch...can't wait to see the pics...but until then....is the fish and cross symbol an inlay or engraving? If it's an engraving...where is it and how large? Again...pics will tell the story...and I am looking forward to seeing them. I have thought about decorating my pedersoli kentucky with some such symbols...and the combo of  brass tacs also....but have never made up mind. Take care.

[sirdutch]

Hello,

It is an engraving and is on top of the what would be the receiver on a cartridge rifle. It is about 1 and 1/2 inch long. It has a scroll like embellishment on both ends of the fish symbol ending in a leaf or feather. It was painstakingly and well done by freehand. The engraving is not just a light surface drawing. The head of the fish points to the muzzle. It has a gorgeous curly maple stock,  is chambered in .45 ( as determined by measurement, The caliber is not marked on the barrel which leads me to think it is not a replica ), Has a brass shoulder pad, has a set trigger and looks like a Pennsylvania style rifle. I can't recall if the trigger guard is brass as I have not seen the rifle for a few months.

I have little experience with muzzle loading flintlocks or percussion rifles and I know there are some awesomely talented rifle makers out there who can produce some beautiful custom replicas of these guns so I can't be sure if it is authentic or not but my friend is sure of it and has had this one for 30 plus years in his personal and extensive collection of American firearms. He kept it in spite of the fact that he is not a flintlock collector but rather a Colt, Winchester, and other Civil War and 1st generation Western firearms collector. He has bought and sold a lot of flintlock firearms as he has traveled all over the United States to gun shows and auctions. My friend kept this one because of it's fine condition. He is a retired machinist and gunsmith and the most trustworthy and honest fellow you could ever meet.

My research so far has lead me to the conclusion that this piece is worth the price he is willing to sell it to me for even if it is just a fine replica and not an authentic period rifle so I'm going to purchase it from him as soon as he is well enough to retrieve it from his shop.

I will share pictures of it as soon as I can. It is impossible to make a judgment call on anything without detailed photos. As I have stated before, I should have waited to post until I had the rifle in hand. I just get excited sometimes and I just "jumped the gun" on this one, so to speak.

This is a great site and I am happy to have found it. It was recommended to me by a kind gentleman from the Traditional Muzzleloading Forum.

Thanks again!

[Roger Fisher]

Update on info:

As I don't have access to this rifle because of my friend recuperating from surgery and his collection is stored elsewhere, I don't have pictures as of yet. However, the name inscribed on the rifle is R. Foor and not B. Foote as described above. In my conversation by phone with him today, He describes the rifle as a Pennsylvania  rifle. It is a very slim rifle. It doesn't have a patch box. It has an outcropping like a cheek rest on the left side of the stock. The stock is a curly maple. There are no other identifying marks any where else on the rifle other than the name, fish symbol and the cross.I will post pics when I can.

All the best,

Maynard

We can assume by your description of the cheek piece that you may be new at originals........So beware take said piece to someone in the area that is more attuned to them b/4 you lay out the $   Easy to get fooled.  My main girl has mucho rounds thru her and many a guy has assumed she was such an antique.l  I built her in 89.

[sirdutch]

Thanks for your advice. A question or two if you if you would. It is unheard of to have a the lock work unmarked as to manufacturer on a real antique rifles or did some makers make their own or were a lot of them unmarked?

It is not a military arm as it has no proof marks as such. Of course I'm ignorant on the subject of flintlocks altogether so any info would be appreciated.  Also, in reference to small cheek rests carved as part of the stock. I've seen pics of vintage antique rifles with an intregal cheek rest or am I mistaken?

If only I had pics to share with all of you.

[Habu]

It is not unheard of for locks to be unmarked.  Cheek rests are usually an integral part of the stock, shaped when the rest of the buttstock is shaped.  

[sirdutch]

Hello all,

I have pictures of my rifled Pennsylvania or Kentucky flintlock. I have the photos on Photo Bucket. I am a novice at how to upload the pics to this site so if anyone can explain to me how to do this I will have them up ASAP. I have uploaded pics before on other site directly from my computer for other forums but I'm not familiar with how this is accomplished here. Thanks! I hope to share these  pictures soon.

Meindert

[Habu]

Instructions for posting photos are here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

[sirdutch]

Hello, here are the pictures on the Kentucky or Pennsylvania flintlock, sorry for the delay:

[James]

It's amazing how much a large Siler resembles the lock on this gun.

[WElliott]

Sirdutch, you have posted pictures of a contemporary rifle, in my opinion.  Sorry.

[sirdutch]

Hello,

Contemporary eh! Pennsylvania, Kentucky, or other? This rifle was in a friends collection since the early 1960's and stored in a dehumidified and temperature controlled vault since with the occasional viewing of course. If it is a contemporary rifle, it is a beauty none the less. As a side note, the tacks are made of a ferrous metal.

Any other comments are appreciated. A name of an expert in flintlocks in the Southern California area that I could visit for a hands on assessment would also be appreciated. Thanks for your input.

Meindert

[JTR]

I agree with Wayne in that it looks like a contemporary rifle. Probably a good shooter!
Where are you in So Ca? There's not many of us out here; I live in La Mesa, and mr no gold is in El Cajon. One of us can take a look at your gun if you'd like.

John

[WElliott]

Sirdutch, I collect (and admire) contemporary as well as 18th and 19th century American flintlock longrifles.  For me to have  posted that your rifle appears to be contemporary is not to denigrate it but to respond to your enquiry.  Flintlock rifles have been continuously produced by craftsmen in this country for 250+ years.  The man who taught me to make a longrifle 40 years ago himself learned 40 years before that from his grandfather, who had apprenticed in the 19th century, etc.  I do recommend that you respond to JTR's offer to have your rifle personally inspected by him or another collector intimately familiar with the matter.  Good luck.

[sirdutch]

Hello again,

I live in Huntington Beach. I appreciate your offers to look at my rifle. We should meet. It would be interesting to meet someone with experience with this type of firearm. Sent me a private message as to where and when or I will tomorrow and I will make the time in the not to distant future. This next weekend I will be busy with the Mirimar Airshow and my company's "Family Day" at a local amusement park on Sunday but I would like to meet either you or Wayne. or both. Thanks for your responses. I'm off to work in a few hours so good night.

Meindert (Maynard)

[Collector]

The first rule of handling ANY FIREARM is to treat it as if it's loaded  So, Is it loaded?? 

Put the ramrod against the barrel from breech to muzzle and mark with piece of masking tape and then drop down barrel.  If the tape is sitt'n a ways up you've got a LOADED contemporary longrifle.  It won't be the first time that someone has been surprised.

Don't use a match to confirm, and don't let the muzzle cross or enter anything that you don't intend to put a fair sized lead ball through; i.e., but not limited to, hands or head.    

[WElliott]

Good advice, Collector.  I have pulled many old (and lethal) loads from 18th and 19th century rifles, as well.  They often kept them loaded and ready, and with no childproof locks  : )

Sirdutch, I wish I could help with a personal inspection, but I live 2,000 miles east of you.

[sirdutch]

Hello WElliot,

2000 miles is a long way indeed! Thanks for your replies non the less.

Meindert

[woodsrunner]

Good point about checking to be sure the rifle isn't loaded! One of our Board Members, James Levy, was until several months ago the director of Florida's Archaeological Restoration/Preservation Lab, and he handled many,many old originals and contemporary pieces turned over to the state of Florida for historic preservation. Jamie says that almost half were loaded! 

[Dphariss]

Hello,

Contemporary eh! Pennsylvania, Kentucky, or other? This rifle was in a friends collection since the early 1960's and stored in a dehumidified and temperature controlled vault since with the occasional viewing of course. If it is a contemporary rifle, it is a beauty none the less. As a side note, the tacks are made of a ferrous metal.

Any other comments are appreciated. A name of an expert in flintlocks in the Southern California area that I could visit for a hands on assessment would also be appreciated. Thanks for your input.

Meindert

I am sorry but none the less it has a current production RE Davis set trigger


Compare to
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=156&styleId=706&partNum=TR-DST-4
The triggers were not available in the 1960s so far as I know.
I am using a set trigger with the same front trigger and plate on a rifle I have in progress right now.


I will also bet that every screw in it is a modern machine made item or at least has modern thread forms. Go to the hardware store and buy a 8-32 x 2" screw and a 10-32 x 2"  one of the other will screw right in in place of the modern lock screws.

Dan

[nord]

With all due respect... Contemporary.