Author Topic: Help needed in identifying an early rifle (Read 9610 times)

presol · « **on:** December 08, 2012, 09:06:41 PM »

I need help with identifying this rifle. I believe it is an early New England rifle, but would appreciate others thoughts. There are several reasons I think it's an early New England rifle. The gun has many of the same characteristics as the rifle listed in Shumway's Vol. II of "Rifles of Colonial America" on pages 602 - 605. Shumway mentioned that the early Revolutionary War period rifles were built like New England fowlers with both French and English influences and are absent of a cheek piece. The rifle is stocked in cherry. The trade lock is marked Galton. What I find interesting is the patchbox cavity. The side walls are chamfered to most likely hold a sheet iron or brass box which would have been slid into the cavity and then secured by adding the butt plate (just a guess). Note the hole in the butt plate. The
barrel measures 31 3/4" long with a smooth bore of .571". I have no idea if this would have been the original length or if it was cut down.
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6879.jpg.html?sort=3&o=10
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6880.jpg.html?sort=3&o=9
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6881.jpg.html?sort=3&o=8
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6882.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6883.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6884.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6885.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6887.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6888.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/user/olpres/media/IMG_6889.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

debnal · « **Reply #1 on:** December 09, 2012, 03:01:02 AM »

OK, I'll take a crack at this one. I collect Revolutionary War fowlers so that's where I will be coming from. The cloud type sideplate, buttplate and triggerguard would not be out of place on a Mass fowler, perhaps one made in the Worcester county area. The octagonal barrel with sights might suggest a rifle. The architecture looks early, maybe a cross between a musket type stock and fowler type. The extension of the wrist well into the butt area seems to be an early feature. I don't see anything that suggests a later period. The patchbox opening is an enigma to me. Perhaps an early Mass rifle?
Al

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** December 09, 2012, 06:43:53 PM »

Box is a late edition. Based on the lock I'd say just post Rev War.

Collector · « **Reply #3 on:** December 09, 2012, 09:10:40 PM »

The easy way: Left click the "IMG Code" (Copied) then 'Paste' in your post. Hit 'Enter' twice to space your photos. You need to have two (2) 'tabs' open- 1st. for Photobucket and the 2nd. for ALR - alternate between. Photos will stay on ALR until you delete them from Photobucket or ALR.

You also need to contact Photobucket and advise them that their 'new' programming is corrupting/pixelating your photos when you link them to other web sites.

Good luck!

mr. no gold · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2012, 12:50:47 AM »

It would be nice to know where this rifle was found. It has an NE Indian appearance to it and I wonder if it was not in Indian hands for much of its life. It was a wonderful gun when it started out, but over the years had hard usage, and treatment. Thanks for showing it to the crowd here.
In the event that you do have some additional information about it, please share it.
Dick

Collector · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2012, 05:26:51 AM »

presol,

Could we please see a few more photos? Perhaps a full length shot, another of the top of the tang and breech and one of the forearm, taken from the side, a few close-ups of the cavity in the butt and another of the lock internals.

Q. Is the barrel swamped? Measurements at breech, mid-point on length and at muzzle?
Q. Is there a rear sight? Missing?
Q. It appears that the front sight on this piece was staked in?
Q. Are the design elements made of lead or pewter and do the four (4) round elements (?) penetrate, completely, through the stock, from side to side?
Q. Is there a trigger plate?
Q. Is the trigger integral to the trigger plate or pinned separately to the stock?
Q. Is the bolt for the tang threaded into the trigger plate or into a square nut, inlet into the stock and secured, in place, by the front of the trigger guard, just ahead of the bow?
Q. It appears that there is some remnant of the thumb plate, intact. Does it show anything discernible?

The additional inletting/shaping into the bottom of the cavity is a particularly curious element/feature.

Certainly presents with a host of questions looking for answers.

To our ALR membership: If I've used the wrong nomenclature or terminology, kindly substitute the word(s) 'thingie,' or 'whichamacallit.'

debnal · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2012, 06:19:45 PM »

Mike,
Can you explain how you date the lock?
Al

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2012, 07:28:14 PM »

The sharp angle at the front of the bolster where it dips towards the nose is a pretty late feature. And the style in general is a post Rev. style

mr. no gold · « **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2012, 08:19:04 PM »

Judging by the engraving on the lockplate it looks to me like a flat faced English colonial lock. This style seems to have followed the round faced lock popular in the mid 1700s, or so, which would put this one in the 1780s. Looking at the architecture and furniture of the gun, it is reasonable to conclude a mid to late 1700s date for it, (probably later). Again, the pewter inlays on the left side suggest to me that it was owned by an Indian as the symbols are somewhat similar to Micmac designs on a powder horn I have seen.
Just some idle thoughts here, by the old retired guy.
Dick

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #9 on:** December 10, 2012, 08:54:42 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on December 10, 2012, 07:28:14 PM

The sharp angle at the front of the bolster where it dips towards the nose is a pretty late feature. And the style in general is a post Rev. style

I'm not sure that I agree Mike (if I understand correctly what feature you're basing your thoughts on) Here is a picture of what I consider to be a fairly early English trade lock. The lock is pitted and the frizzen spring has been replaced, but it's still in original flint with a bridleless frizzen and it's on an early New England Fowler that's dated 1760. This is a round faced lock as opposed to the one on the gun in question, but it also has that sharp angle at the front of the frizzen area.

Frank

debnal · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:06:09 PM »

Frank,
I know that gun and have had it in my hand. After collecting colonial American guns for many years I have found that dating by features can be problematic. Rarely are any of the dating features able to be pinpointed down to a specific date. Rather a general range is more accurate. Since features took a long time (sometimes years) to evolve, sometimes a range of dates is better. I would have thought that the lock on presol's gun might have been dated in a range from 1770-1790. Of course the lock could have been added to the gun much later and that is where the other dating characteristics come into play. I still can find nothing on the gun, as it is presented, that would cause me to think it was a later made gun. While we will never know the exact date the gun was made I feel a range of 1770-1790 wouldn't be out of order.
Al

presol · « **Reply #11 on:** December 10, 2012, 09:52:47 PM »

I certainly appreciate all the comments. I will attempt to answer some of the questions. The barrel is straight and measures 1" at the breech, 15/16" at mid section, and 7/8" at the muzzle. The barrel may have been shortened during its time of use and it is possible that it was swamped. The gun does have a rear sight which is dovetailed to the barrel. It sets 6 3/4" from the tang. The front sight is staked. The designs on the butt stock does appear to be lead and does go all the way through. The gun does have an iron trigger plate and the brass trigger is pinned to the stock. The trigger guard over laps the trigger plate, making it hard to tell if the tang screw is threaded into the plate, but judging by the angle of the screw, it does look like it threads into the plate. The thumb piece does have some design, but I can't make out what it is. It appears that there was another thump piece added over top of the existing one and is now missing. The gun came from Pennsylvania, but I don't have any history on it.
I have to say that I agree with Frank and Al about the squared off section of the lock as not being a later feature. I at one time had a Galton lock that had a round face with a bannana tail to the lock which was squared off like the one pictured. I also have another early English lock that is round faced that has a pan without a bridle and early style trifold frizzen spring. I wouldn't date the lock past 1750s and is squared off (I will add a photo later). The other feature of the lock that I was under the impression was early is the placement of the sear spring in which the sear spring screw is hidden behind the hammer. I think that this changed by moving it back by the 1770s. The English were also making flat faced locks in the 1750s. As Al said, none of these are hard fast rules as things were slow to change back then. One other comment that I will makes is that the gun doesn't look anything like the known late 18th C New England fowlers to me. Question: Didn't the tail of the trade locks become more rounded with a tit on the tail by 1780s? I will try to post more pictures later today but I'm retired now which means I don't have as much time as I did when I was working.
Dale

James Rogers · « **Reply #12 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:02:49 PM »

Much of the Galton production was in cheaper exports on into the 1800's. It is really difficult to try to use fashion and technological trends to date features of lesser quality components. For example, that first pattern acorn trigger guard was used on lesser quality export guns into the nineteenth century, long after it was replaced with more modern styles in country. Same holds true with locks. I don't believe one will be able to apply the same lock evolution dates to locks made for in country and cheap export guns/parts.

DaveM · « **Reply #13 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:24:07 PM »

Interesting gun - a couple of my observations - the rear ramrod pipe may originally have been of a more pointed type originally; it appears that it may have been clipped for us on this gun for ease of inletting. I can't recall seeing a stubbed form of this type before - although it is possible it is an american interpretation and made as shown. The buttplate also appears that the upper screw hole may have shifted a bit perhaps with reuse. Also, the hardware is nicely engraved (not high end but better than some) but the gun lacks any simple raised carving which appears to be a bit inconsistent with the hardware (unless there is some simple raised carving not evident in the photos). The edges of the buttplate near the comb look like they may have been clipped slightly also for reuse on a narrower butt however hard to tell from these photos(does not say what the butt width is)

That all said where I'm going is that it is a possibility that the parts may be from an earlier gun and restocked sometime during or shortly after the war. This was very common at the time. Or, the brass hardware could have been pre-manufactured and purchased for use on the gun. Not to take away anything from the gun, I think it is early, and american made - even if restocked at some point it would have been done fairly early given the butt / comb shape, say before late 1790's. I would say when made as shown here with this stock it was a full stock originally. Nice find!

rich pierce · « **Reply #14 on:** December 10, 2012, 11:27:47 PM »

From the description the barrel is swamped (fat at breech, tapering toward muzzle, then flaring again. From the mounts and the buttstock shape there's nothing about it that says anything but New England to me. A full length view would help us see the shape of the stock better. Cool old gun.

presol · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2012, 03:05:07 AM »

rich pierce · « **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2012, 03:22:02 AM »

DaveM · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2012, 03:36:01 AM »

The wrist piece - looks like the remaining piece may have been a filler piece beneath the outer one that was removed? Maybe this extra piece was used to help build up the piece from underneath, to get the curvature needed on the wrist on top - note the cut shape of the remaining piece. Almost looks like an early silver coin to me with the dots in a circle. Any coin collectors out there?

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2012, 04:30:40 PM »

Quote from: DaveM on December 11, 2012, 03:36:01 AM

The wrist piece - looks like the remaining piece may have been a filler piece beneath the outer one that was removed? Maybe this extra piece was used to help build up the piece from underneath, to get the curvature needed on the wrist on top - note the cut shape of the remaining piece. Almost looks like an early silver coin to me with the dots in a circle. Any coin collectors out there?

I found the lack of thumbpiece interesting on this gun because it shows how they got those humped up thumb pieces in New England. I believe these square corner locks wer done at the time of a restock for the most part, much easier to inlet. i have never seen an english lock of early period made in england for export that had tha square off area.
Date it where you will, I'll stick to post Rev War. 1780ish to 1790ish. The only thing that would make me date it earlier is the fine buttstock archetecture. If it were a french gun I'd date that style to the 1750's. But, it's not french so..... The barrel was of course much longer when the gun was made. Very odd being oct., but odd things do show up from time to time. I would guess it was probably always smooth bored during it's life with this particular gun. It has been shortened from both ends with the sight placement the way it is. Another late feature for NE guns is the barrel keys. You will find keys on some fancier early NE guns, but this is far from fancy. Any engraving that happens to be on the mounts relate to an earlier gun or where imported that way.

presol · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2012, 06:12:59 PM »

Hi Mike,
Thanks for your input. The existing thumb piece looks like lead (very soft and can be scratched with a fingernail). It's possibly a bale seal. It never crossed my mind that it was used to build up the thumb piece, but it makes sense. I think the barrel wedge was added when the gun was cut down. when I took the barrel out, it looks like it had a tennon for a pin removed (a little hard to tell because of the rust).
Dale

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Author Topic: Help needed in identifying an early rifle (Read 9610 times)

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