Breech fouling

[Waksupi]

I have been having some bad breech fouling, particularly in my fowlers, but also in the rifles. I am using Schutzen powder. I don't recall so much build up using Elephant, or GOEX. Has anyone else noticed this? I have to scrape the breech every dozen shots or so, to maintain good accuracy.

[Long Ears]

I am interested in the replies you get on this one. I have never scraped the breech on any of my rifles or Fowler's. This subject came up sometime back and I de-breeched everyone of them to see if I was missing something. I had not a trace of fowling on any of them. I have had what I will call leading issues when using shot in my fowlers. It is in the breech area and is rather hard to scrub out. I do run 3F Goex exclusively so that may be a reason also. But how can fowling on the breech face screw up your accuracy? Gotta think on that one a while. Bob

[T*O*F]

I have been having some bad breech fouling, particularly in my fowlers,

Are you talking about a fouling ring that is 1-2" forward of the breechplug face?

I am using Schutzen powder

It's known for causing the above problem.  You need a wetter lube to get around it.

[Waksupi]

I'm not sure how it affects accuracy, but it seems to in my firearms. I suspect it is doing something to the burn rate, is the only thing I can figure. Once I scrape the breech, accuracy comes right back. This fouling is directly on the breech plug, and comes out in fairly large chunks. 
I'm using moose milk, with pretty wet patches, so can't see that as the problem. I need to deal with it, as I still have a case and a half of the Schutzen left.

[bgf]

Ring where ball seats, yes, actual fouling on breech, no.  I finished a pound of Graf's 3F (supposed to be identical/similar to Schutzen) recently and it was about like Swiss for the ring, maybe a little worse than Goex (but better in many respects), but it didn't really cause any problem.  I got curious a few weeks ago (and felt guilty about not using a breech scraper), and the face of the plug was as mirrorlike as I could have hoped given its conditions .  If it is the ring, maybe wipe the bore every handful of shots to keep it from getting out of hand or use a wetter patch as TOF says.  If it is really breech fouling, one thing that might affect this is cleaning -- I use the bucket and soap method.  If you just wipe out the bore and there is a recess behind the vent, maybe some crud remains and doesn't get washed/forced out during cleaning?  Any kind of imperfection in the bore will attract more crud the next time.

PS.  You were finished typing before I was, but most of it is relevant, maybe; at least it gives you another point of reference.

[Daryl]

I'm interested in this as well. 

I've not had a buildup on the plug face that I know of, or any other fouling buildup that resulted in degraded accuracy in any of my rifles.

Even when shooting paper ctgs. with no lube, I could fire up to 10 shots without fouling issues and no drop in accuracy- & that was with 165gr. of 2F which for all intents and purposes, should have effected something.

I wonder if something else is happening? Note my second sentence.

[Long Ears]

Daryl, I thought hard on this one last night, I got nothing. How can fowling BEHIND the projectile affect it's flight? Waksupi, Sorry but you have got to have something else going on here as Daryl stated. All I have ever heard about fowling on the breech plug affecting is ignition and that has to be on a barrel that the flash hole is right down tight on the breech. Good luck with this one. hopefully someone will come up with an explanation. Bob

[smylee grouch]

Interesting subject. I have had fouling with shutzen but not even close to what I had when I was forced to use elephant over what i normaly used at the time and still use, swiss. I have never had a build up on the face of the breech when a good water based clen job was preformed at the end of the day. Yes there was some fouling but not a build up.    Smylee

[Daryl]

Roger mentioned some time ago, that when cleaning with merely wiping the bore out, that fouling that is at the breech face that isn't cleaned out, can become hard like concrete and continue to build. Interfering with ignition - yes. Effecting a loaded ball - well, I can't see it.

Even after shooting 80 shots without wiping, the 'interior' of the breech (powder chamber} is reduced in capacity only enough to cause the loaded ball to be about 1/4" higher than when the 'breech' was perfectly clean.  That 1/4" higher seating doesn't make any difference that I've been able to measure, accuracy wise.

When cleaning the barrel by the dunk/flush method after a day's shooting of up to 80 shots or so in a 2 pound coffee can 3/4" full of water, the water only slightly greyish - appears drinkable. Letting it sit for a couple minutes and it is just about perfectly clear with some sediment on the bottom of the can. That happens no matter what gun I shoot, from the .32 to the .69, powder charges from 35gr. to 100 as a general rule with the odd one well over that.  That greyish' water was also used to clean the lock, dunking and scrubbing with a toothbrush.  I'm quite satisfied that much of the breech fouling leaves with the burning powder, each shot. Little is left to accumulate.

[omark]

if enough fowling is allowed to build up, i can see how it may in effect make a longer flash channel. it may not affect bench shooting but can see how it could affect offhand shooting.    mark

[Daryl]

I agree, Mark- makes sense. Waksupi does not note how accuracy was effected - ie: through increased ignition timing, ie: hanging fire, or otherwise.

[rsells]

Waksupi,
I am chasing a similar problem with a rifle currently.  I can shoot it off a rest after a good cleaning at home and get a group with the balls touching at 50 yds.  Looked good on the first group (3 shots), but the following groups  opened up to a solid 3 inch group.  Bummer!!  I cleaned the rifle at the range with patches, not scraping the breech face, and the 3 inch groups continued.  Finally, I took a scraper and cleaned the breech face.  The residue would grab hold of the scraper so bad that it wouldn't turn if I had much pressure on the rod.  Large chunks of residue fell on the ground when I turned the muzzle down and tapped the barrel.  Cleaning only the breech face did not get the small group back.  I went home, cleaned the rifle, and went to the range the following week with the same results.  First group great, remaining groups 3 inches O.D.  I think I am not getting a good burn when the rifle fires resulting in the heavy residue build up and causing the accuracy to go away.  I am not having any hang fires, but the flash hole must be building up with residue like the breech face.  I clean  the touch hole better when I clean it at home, and I think everything being very clean accounts for the first group being good.  I have been using the remainder of a pound of GOEX that is several years old, and I am going to try a new can of powder next Tue and see if it fixes my problem.  The rifle is capable, but I have something going on causing the open groups.  First time I have been down this road!
                                                                 Roger Sells

[ottawa]

could the fouling be cousing a inconsistant loading depth or the tightness of the load ie not as packed as when started?

[Dphariss]

There are a lot of things we don't know about internal BP ballistics.
But I do know the fouling can effect ignition and accuracy in some percussion guns. If the impulse varies the accuracy suffers.
Flintlock? They have a different ignition cycle and fouling should not effect this.
So I am at a loss here.
Except....
Fouled powder beds can reduce heat loss to the barrel and theoretically could result increases in pressure and velocity. But I cannot see this being enough to cause accuracy problems.

Dan

[Daryl]

Roger - I'd be trying more powder and a thicker patch, or larger ball.  Perhaps all this powder fouling buildup is caused by small powder charges and their attendent low pressures.

Depending on lube, I use, for example, 55gr.3F with water based lube(WWWF+Oil) or 75gr. 3f with a slippery oil like Shenendoah or LHV lube. To use 2F with the slippery oil lubes, I need 85gr. 2F - that's in a .45 with a .445 ball and 10oz denim or .025" railroad mattress ticking for patching.  Tested this with Shenendoah just last week - seems to shoot the same as the LHV.

The accuracy with all three of these loads is balls touching group after group of 5 shots each, at 50 yards off a rest - no wiping. The accuracy does not change from group to group with either lube.

[Roger Fisher]

Roger mentioned some time ago, that when cleaning with merely wiping the bore out, that fouling that is at the breech face that isn't cleaned out, can become hard like concrete and continue to build. Interfering with ignition - yes. Effecting a loaded ball - well, I can't see it.

Even after shooting 80 shots without wiping, the 'interior' of the breech (powder chamber} is reduced in capacity only enough to cause the loaded ball to be about 1/4" higher than when the 'breech' was perfectly clean.  That 1/4" higher seating doesn't make any difference that I've been able to measure, accuracy wise.

When cleaning the barrel by the dunk/flush method after a day's shooting of up to 80 shots or so in a 2 pound coffee can 3/4" full of water, the water only slightly greyish - appears drinkable. Letting it sit for a couple minutes and it is just about perfectly clear with some sediment on the bottom of the can. That happens no matter what gun I shoot, from the .32 to the .69, powder charges from 35gr. to 100 as a general rule with the odd one well over that.  That greyish' water was also used to clean the lock, dunking and scrubbing with a toothbrush.  I'm quite satisfied that much of the breech fouling leaves with the burning powder, each shot. Little is left to accumulate.

The case in question had to do with misfires not accuracy as I can recall.  This was a shooter that had frequent misfires with his cussin gun and it really ended up being one such...
I told him (after I offered him $75. cash money for that rifle) that he had to get that breech area cleaned out down to the breech plug face.  This went on and on for weeks or more same problem.
Finally ol Mike pulled the breech plug and had to pound the devil out of that fouling plug with a steel rod to get it out.  He told me that said fouling plug was over an inch long. I tells Mike that nio way could that rifle then fire at all.  He then tells me wait a minute that plug had a little bitty hold thru it.  In any case that solved the problem and he is winning and placing ever since.  But he soaks and wipes that plug face every time he cleans her. He had been packing the fouling from the breech with his cleaning rod and it built up badly!

[bgf]

Maybe excess oil pooling in the breech starts the fouling cake?  I over oiled and/or didn't wipe out my caplock (patent breech) well before shooting once and it was a nightmare to get to fire.  Just cleaning out at the range didn't fix it -- it didn't work right until I got it home and cleaned it in a bucket.

[Majorjoel]

Just another thought on this perplexing subject. I think it may be a possiblity that after the first few shots which are building up a fowling layer along the entire length of the barrel. This layer is scraped down and packed upon the breech plug with each consecutive load. Humidity conditions and the type of powder used may also have a factor in this rare condition. I have found that shooting one of my percussion rifles, it is best not to swab the barrel between shots as I have pushed fowling right down into the bolster. Nothing but misfires after that.

[Daryl]

  it is best not to swab the barrel between shots as I have pushed fowling right down into the bolster. Nothing but misfires after that.

As good an argument as I've ever seen, for never wiping between shots and only wiping when cleaning at home.