Lepage A Liege

[voyageur1688]

 I am looking for information and an appraisal on a Lepage A Liege double bbl shotgun that I am looking at.  Pictures are not available yet but  I will be posting them soon.  The English  proof marks are E L G incircled in an oval with the E on top and the L G on the bottom which was used between 1811 and 1892--however some other marks seem to be Belgian.  Bore seems to be approximately a 16 guage. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.
 Thank you for the help.
  Todd

[nord]

Your gun is Belgian. Only will it have English proofs if imported into England.

Photos will be a huge help but I'd not get my hopes up as most Belgian doubles of the mid to late 1800's into 1915 were inexpensive trade guns. Not by any means all, just a vast majority.

16 ga. is common for a European gun so no surprises there. You fail to mention whether a percussion gun or a breach loader. Generally the muzzle stuffers are less desirable than the more modern breach loaders.

Unless something well above a trade gun the value will be hard pressed to exceed $200.00. Less if a muzzle loader by 30% as general rule. A bit more if a modern gun with fluid steel tubes.

[JV Puleo]

In "Four Centuries of Liege Gunmaking," Claude Gaier mentions a Liege gun and hardware dealer named Lepage as being listed in a commercial directory of 1808. This is apparently not the same LePage we usually think of... a famous Parisian gunmaker. Without pictures this sounds like a Belgian export gun for sale to Americans and intended to take advantage of the similarity of the name with the more famous French gunmakers.

Also, regarding the Belgian proofs - Belgium allowed its gunmakers to mark any name they wanted on their products but they did insist on proof... the traditional Liege mark was instituted by a decree of the French government dated December 10, 1810. At the time, Belgium was incorporated into the French empire and most of its prodigious arms making efforts went to making arms for the French and their allies. Its ports were also blockaded by the Royal Navy, so the likelihood of Belgian civilian arms reaching America between 1810 and 1813 is nil. From 1813 to to the fall of Napoleon the manufacture of civilian arms was prohibited altogether. Very few, if any civilian arms were made until the end of the Napoleonic wars, so effectively the earliest date we can expect to see that mark on an export gun is 1815/16.

"ELG" is a pure Belgian mark - having nothing to do with England. It really should be read "LEG" for "Liege."

[voyageur1688]

 It is a percussion muzzle loader.
 Todd

[Feltwad]

I think most of the information has been given by other persons ,all I can add is that over the years I have restored several of these guns,some were good but most were a cheap import  not in the same class as an English built gun .
I have enclosed images of the last Lepage I restored  the first images are before restoration and the safety devise the last two are the finished job .Hope this has been of some help
Feltwad



Safety



Name Inlay
 

Finish Job

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

In following the dating logic for this and other European guns, it seems that assuming it must have been exported to the US  is standard???  Could not a gun made in 1808 for example been owned then by a european who subsequently imigrated to the US with his gun.... Seems to me that there was fair opportunity fot many guns to come to the US this way rather than having to be an "Export" gun... Does this make any sense??

[Feltwad]

Yes more so prior to 1800 many Europeans  who emigrated to the States brought with them their own personal guns .
Feltwad

[nord]

Your logic is sound... Up to a point.

Firearms of the first few decades of the 1800's were very unlike the modern form of the double barrel shotgun for the most part. (In this case we're speaking of a "modern" double.)  No question that while many firearms were brought to the US by their owners, few resembled the "modern" double scattergun prior to 1850.

Belgians didn't really get into the US export game until just before the Civil War. They started with rifles mostly, then began to manufacture inexpensive doubles in great numbers. These products were undoubtedly made for the trade. They nearly put the US makers out of business in the utility firearm arena.

Long about the late 1870's the US instituted a law requiring a MSO being stamped on the firearm. Thus, "Made in Belgium" can be said to date a firearm to a period roughly no earlier than 1880.

The firearm in question is "modern". While a muzzlestuffer, it has the physical characteristics of today's doubles, not those of a fowler. Absent of a MSO stamp and by the very fact of it's design we can reasonably conclude that the gun was made sometime after 1850 and before 1875. Past 1875 the gun would more likely have been a breach loader.

[Feltwad]

Nord I think you have miss understood my answer. The question was Did the Europeans bring with them their own  guns .The answer I gave was yes more so proir to 1800, this could have been any make such as a fowler or rifle  made by any maker . the sxs was not mentioned
Feltwad

[nord]

FW -

Point taken. I just wanted to be sure that it was understood that the Belgians began to flood the market just prior to the Civil War and really came into their own in the 80's and 90's right up to the start of WW1.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Thanks guys. Helpful history.

[Smoke Smith]

 My father is giving me one, that has been passed the family, and originated from New Orleans. I was wondering on what the estimated worth is? I will post pictures as soon as I figure it out. The furniture is beautiful, the brass is etched and in good condition, everything looks really good. The only draw backs are one of the hammers is broken, and there is a charge in the barrel.

Currently I am working that issue but it has been following us and hanging on the mantle everywhere we went.

Smoke Smith

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I have pulled several charges from ML guns, especially shotguns.  The best technique I have used yet is to pour kerosene down the barrel on top of the charge and let it stand.  When kerosene starts to leak out it nipple, you have begun to penetrate the charge.  Let it stand in a bucket until a substantial amount of kerosene has leaked through.  Then you are sure the charge has been killed and you can safely remove the charge with a worm and other tools.  The value of the kerosene is that unlike water, you don't risk rusting the shotgun's barrel.  One shotgun that I unloaded this way used newspaper for wadding.  The kerosene toughened the paper to the point that it came out nearly whole. The newspaper was dated 1906.  The shot was mixed sizes and appeared to be home made as it wasn't very round.