Pre carved stock

[FRJ]

Well I didn't take everyones advice and am paying for it now!!!!!! I was advised on this sight not to use a pre carved stock and I ignored that advise. Shame on me.Its my first build and I thought it would be much easier to go with the precarved, WRONG!!!!! So far I have spent far more time trying to correct the misalignment etc of the pre carved then I would have spent if I just did it myself.I'm going to have to glass bed the barrel and tang and the wedge etchusions just to get everything laying right. Then may God help me I still have the rest of the rifle to do. This was going to be my one and only build but now I'm already planning my next one just to make it much better than this one. Live and learn!!!! If I had just bought the 2 books I am now using and read them before I started on this I would have been way ahead Recreating the American Longrifle by Buchele, Shumway and Alexander and Longrifle Construction Manual by Susan Bicio. Sure is fun learning the hard way!!!!!! NOT!!!! Frank

[blunderbuss]

When I started there was no such thing as a pre carved stock so I got used to doing it that way. When they came out I thought Oh Boy they will save me some work. That is until I tried one I found I can't chuck it up where I want and that's awkward ,then the barrel didn't fit the mortis ect. So don't feel bad it sure looks easier

[Robert Wolfe]

Well, I've built 3 and am working on a 4th all from precarves and have had a good time with all of them.  Perhaps I am just lucky.  Except for the Chamber's kit I have gotten them all with no inletting except for the barrel and ramrod channel. That way there is less opportunity for something to be misaligned. I hope it works out for you.

[Acer Saccharum]

I am sorry for your troubles. I really do feel for you.

I built one rifle kit, and it was a good quality one at that. But the lock mortice was cut just a tad too large for comfort. This gave me NO latitude for lock placement, which I sorely needed. Sideplate was precut inlet a little too large as well. In the end, I did get things together, but it took me a lot longer than if neither lock nor sideplate were inlet at all.

So it's not always great advice to tell someone to start from a kit. Depends on the kit.

To get started on this gunbuilding kick, you gotta be thick skinned determined bugger. It's not for the faint of heart. May I suggest you have a beer, take some time off from the gun, and get back to it once your head clears.

Tom

[wattlebuster]

Sorry your having bad luck. I have built several an have had really good luck, they look ok an shoot great. Maybe yours will turn out ok for you

[Bill of the 45th]

The precarves are much easier if you get them without the lock mortice cut.  Dave Keck's precarves only have th Butt rough carved, with lots of wood left, and his barrel inlet is great.  Sorry for your problems.  Some of us  just have to lick the knife blade to see if it's sharp, instead of listening  to Mama.

Bill

[coutios]

  I support all of the prior comments as to the fact that pre-carves have much to offer. The term pre-carve is loosely applied to all of the stocks that have various levels of machine work done to them. They all have one thing in common in the fact that a human was involved in the set up of the machinery. You allready know the old saying... " Stuff Happens".   A bad stock can get out there now and then. It does not mean that All pre-carves have issues.
  If you or know someone who is about to enter this wonderfull hobby via the pre-carved route read the books, watch the videos, visit this site or find a mentor. It will prevent both a loss of funds and disapointment.
   Just my lot look...

  Regards.......... Dave

[Acer Saccharum]

I find it's a long road of buying things we thought were the answer to all of our problems, only to find out a new set of problems are introduced.

I can't tell you the pile of mistaken stuff I've accumulated over the years, only to be sloughed off like a snakeskin onto the nearest unsuspecting newbie. (just kidding, I have a huge pile of junk I'd never foist on an unsuspecting neophyte)

We must all learn by our mistakes, and we also learn by making the best of our mistakes. I think this is an important ingredient of a successful builder. How do you handle yourself when faced with a dilemma? Figure out a way to make it work, or smash it all up and pout?

There are times when either response is correct, but it takes years and many wrong choices to know the difference. (I aint there yet)

Did I tell you? Ian Pratt and I are hosting a talk at Dixon's this coming July? (The Art of the Longrifle, or, Saturday Morning Cartoons. We have not settled on the title yet)

The gun is a creative process, with a lot of latitude in many areas, but very little in others. When you look through the gun books, RCA and others, you can see all the mistakes have already been made, so you can take a deep breath and forge ahead. Again, it's not about NOT making mistakes, it about how you deal with them once they're made. We live in an imperfect world, and so, too, should your guns mirror life.

I speak about what I like in a gun. I like life in a gun, I like creativity, but within historical context. I want a gun to sing to me. To knock me out like a beautiful woman. This is an elusive quality to capture. Everyone has their own reasons to build.

Try to keep your building in a long term perspective. One gun is not enough to get your skills and tools up to speed. You need to make many before it becomes a natural self expression. There are exceptions to the looong road of gun building, but for most of us poor slobs, there is no way around but to knuckle down and put our time (and money) in.

I think I may have said too much. Or not enough.  

Tom

[Bill of the 45th]

Well said Acer.  Looking forward to the talk at Dixon's, either topic should be great, though I like the dinners after, and the show and tell on the picnic tables behind the hotel.

Bill

[FALout]

Acer's got it right,
 " it's not about NOT making mistakes, it about how you deal with them once they're made.  "
Wing'n it on gun building just doesn't work well, and even with the best laid plans, things can go array.  Don't cut corners just because there were a few mistakes on this rifle, it can still be made into something that you should be proud of when finished.  As for building from a blank, it forces you to layout some plans.  I've built from both blanks and precarves and have had troubles with both even tho I will agree that building from a blank is better.  I once built a "Tulle" using a precarve, had to send back 2 stocks because they had a twist in them, after recieving the 3rd one that was the same as the others, I just built the darn thing and sold it when done cause I didn't like the fit from the toe of the stock pointing inward (to the left).  It looked great and the person who bought it loved it.  As already stated, if using a precarve, always get one with the lock mortise NOT cut in, you can always position the lock where you want to avoid trouble such as lock bolt interfence with ramrod, just an example.  Glass bedding isn't the end of the world and the only one to know is you, just watch out if doing the "wedges" so you dont basically epoxy your barrel to the stock permanently.

[FRJ]

First off I want to thank you all for your great advice and condolences!! I'm not a quiter!!!! I'm a stubborn SOB that would rather die than quit!! This rifle is going to be finished and finished right no matter what. I already have a stock blank,barrel with hook breech, butt plate and a few other odds and ends to start on my next one as soon as this is done and I've learned all I can from it. I've learned so much already and have sooooo far to go. Thanks again guys it is really appreciated. Frank

[Acer Saccharum]

Glad to hear it, Frank. Atta boy.

Sometimes when the pre-inlet is too big for the part, there are some ideas for fixes:
1) make a new part, bigger,to fill the gap. Sideplates, lockplates, inlays
2) hammer the part out to stretch it: this works well on sideplates, barrel tangs, guard extensions.
3) weld added to enlarge a part: this works sometimes on lockplates.
4) glue wood in: last on my list, but sometimes unavoidable. stain the wood before gluing.

[Don Getz]

Unfortunately for the majority of the gunbuilders on this forum, you are at a disadvantage when it comes to purchasing
a "pre-carved" stock.    I am at a point in my gunbuilding where I have reached the 90+ number, and only about 3 or 4
of them were done from a blank.    I have always had the advanage of being in close proximity to stock carvers and I
would supply my own pattern.   We have a rather generic Lancaster pattern stock and I have done countless number of
barn guns from it.    I have made changes to these generic stocks by shortening the comb, rounding them somewhat like
a Berks county gun,  doing a concave shape in the bottom line of the buttstock which just changes the whole architectural
shape of the gun.   I also had fun in doing my "christian spring's" barn gun.  I was done in 60 cal., which makes for a light
barrel, and, while the gun appears to be "big", it is actually light, surprises a lot of people.   And, before you condemn these pre-carved guns, the well known gunbuilder John Bivins, made a lot of guns from a pre shaped stock........so does
Jim Chambers, and you sure can't knock his work.    I am presently working on a real neat little Tenn. Mtn. rifle which we
did a pre-shaped pattern for,  this first one is going to a Friends of the NRA banquet to be auctioned off.   Super curly ash
stock, which, unfortunately would be described by the late Lew Sanchez as  "harder than woodpecker lips"...........Don

[Acer Saccharum]

Sage advice, Don. Thanks.

[dbraw]

Tip Curtis has the best precarved stocks in the world. Over 150 different patterns. I have built dozens from scratch as well as precarved ones from all that are available. Some look like they were precarved with an axe. No comparison to Tips.
Dan B

[Birddog6]

I have built dozens of precarved  or preshaped stocks.  I have sent MANY back. Almost every one because the stock was Over-inlet...  A couple because of grain run-out at the wrist.

The problem with most people buying precarves stocks, people buy them & expect everything to be perfect.  To me,  a precarve stock simply means 50% of the wood is out of the way & the style of the stock is determined. That's it.  The rest is up to me. It is not supposed to be a Lyman GPR sand & finish  assembly kit.....  You are supposed to Build the rifle.

Another problem I feel is the guys carving the stocks & the ones selling them KNOWING they are not inlet correctly or Over-inlet. They let the patterns wear & don't compensate until umpteen of them are over-inlet, THEN they fix them, and only then if enough people raise H about them..... Until then, unfortunately you are the person that suffers.

Unless I can lay every single part over the precarve stock & SEE it is not overcut, I will not buy any precarve stock from anyone with all the inlets done any more until I see Major changes in almost ALL the venders supplying them.  Paying $ 2-3-400. for a stock that is Over-inlet is Total B.S.   Don't even think buying from the major venders will save you, cause I have had over-cut stocks from almost ALL of the major venders except Dave Keck. (I have not tried his so have no opinion on his).

The best advice I can give you is this:

1:  Have your Own Patterns that a guy will follow precarving it.
2:  If you cannot do #1, then get the stock with the barrel inlet, stock roughed out up
     to the lock panels, drill RR hole & cut RR groove & No Other Inlets.,
3:  Check the precarve immediately when ya get it. Make sure all the items are where  
     they are supposed to be, holes drilled correctly, etc.
4:  Don't accept shoddy work, bad grain at the wrist, off centered holes for the RR,
     twists in the stocks, etc.  That is B.S. and Not what you paid for.
5:  Be upfront & straight with the vender of what you expect.  If Anything  is
     wrong, send it back & insist the vender to pay the return shipping cost & a Full
     Refund.  If everyone did this, this Over-inlet  B.S. would cease.  If the vender is not
     willing to accept the "return Full Refund" part, use another vender.  

You are buying a product & expecting the product to be correct when you get it. Why should you accept less ?   Stand strong & get what you paid for or send it back.

Keith Lisle

    

[FRJ]

I certainly have no intention of casting aspersions at or on anyones work when it c omes to building rifles. I admire all of you weather you use a pre carved stock or a blank. If I gave the wrong  impression I must appologize for it right now and I do.All of you have been extremely helpful in this my first but not my last build.I'm just a little frustrated right now because of the time I have had to spend straightening out small but avoidable mistakes that  were made by someone when they did the inlettting on the stock.Many of you dont even know that you have helped me as I have never asked a lot of questions of you. I didn't have to!!!!! I have used the simple expedient of reading almost all of the previous posts on Gun Building before I even tried starting on this build. I am proud  that you guys and gals are kind enough to help this newbie in my quest to build my own rifle. I promise I wont let you down. Again please accept my appologies for anything I may have said that  was offensive to you. Oh and yes I will be asking more questions. Frank

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

At'lll get er Frank!!!

[FRJ]

Dear Mr Lisle, I agree with your lists completely. Problem is/was this is my first build and I didn't know what to look for when I got the stock. I wish I had had your list before I started on this rifle. BUT thats all part of learning and I wont make these mistakes again.So much to learn so little time to get er done!!!!!  Thanks again for your input. Frank

[WadePatton]

Go Go Keith! 

Heck, I might try one of Tippy's next time--I'll fondle/fit check it before $ come out of pocket. 

But then there's so much magic in opening a box from Pat and Freddy Harrison.  Besides-the scraps from a plank make great pretty hand-made tool handles...like i've seen in Tullahoma.

[Bill of the 45th]

Frank, if you don't make mistakes, you're not learning.  For every one of those "Aw $#*&'s" you gain knowledge, and sometimes a little blood.   Keep at it.  What's that Jarhead saying about improvising, and overcoming.

Bill

[FRJ]

Don't know about the jarheads but in the US Infantry it was Adapt, Improvise, Prevail. Frank

[docone]

I donno.
There are two ways you learn.
Out of the pocket, or out of the book.
As I get on in years, I have forgotten a lot of book learning. However, when it hit my pocket, I remember.
I tend to get cheap first, then get the correct part. I pay twice for the same thing.
Good luck on your project. I am still struggling.

[Acer Saccharum]

I find when I get stuck, I walk away for a bit. Come back to it when the right fix comes to mind.

When the 'fix' doesn't emerge, I'm lost, and I'll post my question on the ALR.  I might get ten or twenty answers, but out of the discussion, I'll pick what I see as the most do-able, a solution that fits my skill level and pocketbook.

[excess650]

Unfortunately for the majority of the gunbuilders on this forum, you are at a disadvantage when it comes to purchasing
a "pre-carved" stock.   <snip>  I have always had the advanage of being in close proximity to stock carvers and I
would supply my own pattern.   We have a rather generic Lancaster pattern stock and I have done countless number of
barn guns from it.    I have made changes to these generic stocks by shortening the comb, rounding them somewhat like
a Berks county gun,  doing a concave shape in the bottom line of the buttstock which just changes the whole architectural
shape of the gun.   I also had fun in doing my "christian spring's" barn gun.  I was done in 60 cal., which makes for a light
barrel, and, while the gun appears to be "big", it is actually light, surprises a lot of people.   <snip>...........Don

I've had the opportunity to handle Don's "60cal barn gun".  It IS a large rifle.  I recall the barrel being 43", but 60cal.  The buttstock is wide, but no heavy buttplate, so deceptively light!  It IS a joy to handle.

There is a "local guy" who does a nice job of carving buttstocks, dupicating barrel channels to the exact barrel to be used, drilling the ramrod hole, and possibly inletting the lock if desired.  The forends are left square, and he will use a supplied pattern.  I'm a bit fussy about layout, so spend a lot of time to ensure that the blank and pattern will yield the desired stock with no defects, and good grain flow.  Being a novice, starting with a plank is daunting.