How many shots from one pound of 3F

[RB-sunshine]

[img]Can anyone tell me if I am shooting 60 grains of 3F powder how many shots would I get from a one pound can?

Thanks.

[SCLoyalist]

There's always a few grains wastage, and variation depending on the style and accuracy of the graduations on whatever measure you're using.  Like TOF said, a pound is 7000 grains,  so you should get maybe 110 shots or so.

[T.C.Albert]

Just curious...but a "pound" is a unit for weight measurement...as is an apothecary "grain"... but a powder measure throwing 70 grains of powder seems like it is measuring volume since it is not a "scale" measuring weight?

question: does 70 grains of 2F displace exactly the same volume as 70 grains of 4f?
if not whats the difference?

So, to reiterate, will 70 volumed or "measure thrown grains" of 4f actually weigh what 70 "measure thrown grains" of 2f weighs etc? I suppose the difference is not really noticeable, but I'm thinking technically its there right? Anyhow, since most guys use a standard fixed or adjustable powder measure and not a scale, I was just wondering how much difference there might be and figured you guys could help me out...
tc

[bob in the woods]

You are correct in questioning the difference between 2, 3 or 4 F when measuring volume. They do not weigh the same, since the smaller particles make for greater density. Black powder is forgiving enough that we can load by volume. A grain or 2 here and there makes little difference.....unlike Bullseye or W 296 etc
With the possible exception of 4F, I don't think it matters much. I weighed the charges thrown by the sliding adjustable measure I have, and if I remember correctly, the 70 gr setting was in the area of 68 1/2 gr with 2F and 70 gr with 3F.  That was with the Lot of GOEX I had at the time.   

[excess650]

Too, if you're measuring volume, the number of shots in a pound will vary from brand to brand because of density differences in the powder.  I recently checked Swiss, Goex, Elephant, Diamondback and KIK for relative density.  Swiss was the most dense and KIK was the least, so the KIK would occupy a larger volume for the same weight. 

Be aware that brands of powder vary in density from lot to lot as well.  The first lot of Swiss (imported by Goex) was 5% less dense than the 2004(?) lot that I have on hand.  I'm told that the 2010 lot of KIK is similar in density to Diamondback or Elephant 25/99, so roughly 10% more dense than the 2000 lot that I have.

The real answer, if you're measuring by volume, is to get the average weight per volume of your lot of powder and divide 7000 by your average weight.

[Daryl]

HA! - Of course you're right guys, ambient moisture content of the powder will also varry the weight per volume and that difference can be quite significant.

When you do obtain access to a grain weighing scale, simply weigh the 'stricken' measure from your 'set' adjustable powder measure and record it - or if wanting an exact charge, say, 73gr. of example, throw, weigh and adjust the adjustable until it you are throwning the exact weight or whatever powder it is you want to use.  

Then and only then, can you can say my measure throws X # of grains of Y-type powder with some accuracy. Once you know the # of grains of powder you are throwing and using the division of 7,000, you'll know quite closely, how many shots you can get out of a 'true' 16 ounce pound of powder.

[Rootsy]

More commonly known as bulk density by us farmer and engineer types.

[Standing Bear]

Does it really matter if you get 98 or 111 shots from a pound.  We are all assuming exactly 7000 grains in a can - what if it's 7070 and you get 115?

[T.C.Albert]

I suppose it might matter? but probably not too much to us ...it is intersting though you must admit. Well, to me anyway.

I had heard that near the end of the muzzle loader era, back when the best ml marksmen were having hard core shooting matches against the cartridge shooters and winning, that the loads for each shot were studiously fussed over, and even poured into the barrel a certain way etc...

I guess how many shots are in a 1 pound can can be roughed out well enough, but I didnt want to overlook the rest of this stuff.
tc
 
 

[Kermit]

Most of us shoot using "thrown" charges, dumped from a measure of some sort. Some of them are pretty crude looking, and I doubt there's much fussing to get things "right." It seems to me to be appropriately "traditional," and in keeping with the general orientation of this forum.

If you hike over to watch the folks shooting roundball bench or slug guns--or those guys shooting breech seating long range BPCR type stuff (not to be spoken of in these quarters)--you will find guys using digital scales that are inside an acrylic box to remove the effects of wind on the charge consistency.

Needs  differ. Minute-of-deer or gong or whatever is a lot different from string length over at the chunk range.

No one right way. But we digress. The original question was answered a ways back.

[Dogshirt]

I'm not sure how to word this, but here goes. I know that Pyrodex and the other subs are measured by
volume. I have also heard it stated elsewhere that different grades (2f 3f) need "adjustment" ie
if you shoot 60 gr of 3f in your rifle, that you need to add 10% more  if shooting 2f. 
My question is... What is the STANDARD that my 60 gr measure is set to MEASURE?

I hope that was clearer than "mud".

[roundball]

The 10% rule of thumb you're referring to really deals with pressure, not weights & volumes like is being discussed.

When substituting 3F for a 2F load, the reduction is to keep pressures in about the same ball park because 3F being faster burning will jump pressure faster than 2F.
So if you were normally shooting 100grns Goex 2F and wanted to use 3F instead, the 10-15% reduction rule of thumb would suggest using 85-90grns 3F.

[SCLoyalist]

I believe the 10 percent more rule of thumb for 2F vs 3F is to get you the same approximate muzzle velocity.  (I think more commonly it's stated as if you're getting X fps muzzle velocity with 2F you can reduce the charge by 10 percent or so with 3F and get the same mv).

Pyrodex used to be (maybe still is for all I know) less dense than 3F, so if you were shooting 50 gr (by weight) of 3F and loaded the same volume of Pyrodex you'd really only be loading 45 grains (by weight) of the substitute.   End result was for a 7000 gr or 1 lb can of pyrodex you supposedly got 10 percent or so more shots than if you were shooting Goex.

Your measure is probably kinda sorta calibrated to 3F, but the only way to know for sure is to fill your measure to the 100 grain mark then dump the powder onto a powder scale you trust and see what it really weighs.

I should have a chart that came with a Lee powder dipper set that gives the weight in grains of various powders versus volume (in cubic centimeters).   That would give a comparison for the general density and percentage variations between  powder choices.

[SCLoyalist]

Okay, powder density example from a 1978 Lee Powder dipper kit chart:

Same volume of powder:  4 cubic centimeters
3Fg  63.7grains by weight
2Fg  58.8 grains "
4Fg  59.6 grains    (general info only, not that anyone would try to load this)
1Fg  55.7 gr by weight
Pyrodex RS 49.3 gr by weight (and remember this is a 1978 chart and the Pyrodex formula has probably changed over the years
Pyrodex P  48.6 Gr by weight (in 1978)

And, I just set my powder measure for 100 grains and measured the following actual weights for Goex 2F, 3F and Pyrodex RS, without changing the powder measure setting between weighs:

   2F:   95.5 grains
   3F     98 grains
  Pyrod RS:   68 grains  (which seemed unexpectedly low, but that's what I got)

[Daryl]

It is most likely safe to say that every make of adjustable powder measure will throw a slightly different charge, when set at the same setting/marking.

One other thing, is that charge to charge weight will vary, depending on the technique of the powder measurer, from around 1/2gr. for someone well versed and careful, to about 5 gr. for sloppy work.

 The different measures I've tested (4 or 5) have been within 5 gr. when using 3F in a 100gr. measure with bores of 3/8", that is, they measure 97.5 to 102.5gr. Close enough for me.  Increase that to 7/16" or 1/2" and the error goes up exponentially, throw to throw. With a 3/8" ID measure, I can usually hold to 1gr. error, 1/2gr. each side. I cannot see that error on target with my .40 cal or larger cal. rifles. With the .32, I use a 5/16" ID measure which throws within 1/2gr. extreme. I like that.


Too, the smaller diameter of the measure, the closer together will be the weight of each charge thrown, technique being consistant, each time.

One throw mounded, one throw level, one throw under-level and there can be 6gr. difference.  Sloppiness in pouring from the horn, ie: different speed of the pouring powder, will allow or make the powder pack differently in the measure - causing differences in weight, although they might be thrown to the same level, ie: even. If you don't believe it, throw a bunch and measure the results on a grain scale. 

Consistancy is very important when using stricken measures if the best accuracy from the rifle or pistol is desired. A variation of 5 gr. is quite evident on the paper, and thus is also evident on gongs and deer past 50 yards. A difference of 3gr. in a small bore rifle is also quite evident. In my .32, it meant doubling group size at 50yards. In an accuracy event, that's way too much. On a racoon, or feral cat, it's nothing, maybe - depending on the accuracy to start with.

The smaller the bore size, the greater the effect of inconsistancy, which is why Frizzen weighs every charge for his .32 cal. match pistol & as noted, for many do for chunk and other accuracy games.